Does God know all things that are, have been, and will be?

[Nang]

Time has existed since God first moved,

What does "first moved" mean and entail, in your opinion?

just as communication has existed since God first spoke. Perhaps Jerry can tell us when that was.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always "communicated."

Nang

 

[graceandpeace]

Lighthouse:

You read me like you do the bible:

Here is what I said, about whether or not just because God is free to choose, what He can do with it:

Just because God is free to choose does NOT mean He would or could.

It appeared to me you said the same thing. If not..at least do not try to say I said something I didnt.


Sometimes I wonder whom really reads posts, before they post.:wave:

 

[ghost]

What does "first moved" mean and entail, in your opinion?

God has never been without thought or purpose. God has never been stagnant. In this sense, He has always experienced movement.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always "communicated."

Exactly! :thumb:

I do not believe God created movement, or communication, or time. I believe they exist because He exists. We know that God created the universe and all that is in it. In that sense, we can say that God created space, yet God does not exist in nothingness. God has always existed beyond that which we can see. Were there angels before God created the universe? Were they in God, or in His presence? If so, where? If time is created with the creation of the universe, then when were the angels created?

 

[Nang]

God has never been without thought or purpose. God has never been stagnant. In this sense, He has always experienced movement.

Whew!

I thought you were thinking to limit God's "movements" to creation, alone.

I do not believe God created movement, or communication, or time.

I believe He created a material manifestation of these things for His creatures; especially those created in His image.

But God's movements and communications have never been limited to created time or contingent events.

I believe they exist because He exists. We know that God created the universe and all that is in it. In that sense, we can say that God created space, yet God does not exist in nothingness. God has always existed beyond that which we can see.

All our movements and communications were formed out of nothing by the Word of God blessing us with such capacities. Our capacities result in limitations, but of course, that does not limit God's attributes.

Were there angels before God created the universe? Were they in God, or in His presence? If so, where? If time is created with the creation of the universe, then when were the angels created?

I personally theorize that angels are creations of God, and therefore were created when the universe was created.

But angel-talk makes me nervous and I rarely indulge speculating about it . . .

Nang

 

[ghost]

Okay, but were not talking about us, because there was a "time" when us did not exist.

 

[Lon]

The biblical, Hebraic OT view is not timelessness. If some ancient writers had a more Platonic understanding, it does not mean they are right. I could also give you quotes from ancient writers to support endless time, not timelessness (Winkie Pratney's book on the character/attributes of God explores the biblical/logical view of eternity in the OT/NT). I would dispute your supposed 'proof' in light of credible, contrary evidence and the inability for you or anyone to resolve the debate in a post or two. JWs also can quote this and that to disprove the trinity, but their evidence/approach is refutable.

I was also pleased to find the correct understanding of eternity in a traditional, conservative evangelical book: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia 'eternity' article by C.R. Schoonhoven.

Even strident Open Theism critic Bruce Ware agrees with Open Theism on this point (reject classic eternal now), but does not follow it through to its implications on omniscience/FK.

There are many credible Christian thinkers who reject Augustinian-Platonic views for a more biblical, coherent one (so don't be dogmatic without wrestling at a greater level from both sides).

You just said in the other thread that God is not limited by time but it is (or is part) of His reality --> relational to, unconstrained by. If you didn't mean to agree with me, your's would be the incoherent view.
Read the proof above. It is solid.

 

[Lon]

Time has existed since God first moved, just as communication has existed since God first spoke. Perhaps Jerry can tell us when that was.

I disagree. There was no 'time' when God first moved. He has always been. This automatically means time is something very different for God. You cannot have duration without a beginning. You couldn't have started a stopwatch way back when, because eons before that, He still didn't 'start to move' but has always been. No time concept can grasp or explain that. He is outside of our understanding of duration. I proved that above. There is no point of reference to start timing God with a stopwatch. Give God the stopwatch and tell Him to start it when He first started moving. He won't do it because there is nothing to measure. "Now" is the only point that we could start timing Him. The problem is, His existence doesn't just extend into infinity in the future, it extends into the past infinity. Nobody can measure that. God automatically escapes time.

 

[ghost]

I disagree. There was no 'time' when God first moved. He has always been.

That was my point. (see my posts that follow).

This automatically means time is something very different for God.

Different how?

You cannot have duration without a beginning.

Can you have movement without a beginning? When has God not moved?

 

[Lon]

There's a big difference between God seeing us eat an apple as we are doing it in the present or had eaten an apple in the past and God seeing us eating an apple in the future. If we are "finite" how can we have done anything other than in the past and be doing anything other than in the present? Does'nt finite mean" limited"? If so, then are we not limited to moment by moment activity only?

--Dave

Of course we are limited (finite). God isn't (infinite).

 

[Lon]

That was my point. (see my posts that follow). Different how? Can you have movement without a beginning? When has God not moved?

You are still thinking of movement as a physical thing (I believe). Whatever and however God moves is also very different than our constraints. We say He is omnipresent based on scriptures like "nothing is hid from His eyes..."
If He sees everything, He doesn't move within our parameters like you and I, nor sees with physical eyes. There is nothing in this creation of His that limits Him. We have to continually listen to what He tells us of Himself to get beyond our finite impressions of Him. I believe God is not somewhere or somewhen that we'd grasp readily. I'm unsure if where He dwells needs 'space.'

You have to have movement without a beginning because God moves and yet has no beginning. How He moves is different than we conceive, I believe.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Can you have movement without a beginning? When has God not moved?

God is not becoming. God is fully actualized. God is.

There is no movement within the Godhead. For more, see the term perichoresis as relates to God. Think of the term as meaning "shared life" or "mutual indwelling". You are in the deep end of the pool now!

AMR

 

[Nang]

Okay, but were not talking about us, because there was a "time" when us did not exist.

Not sure this is so . . .

Physically and materially,perhaps, because before the creation of time, our existence was unseen, but in the mind and will and purposes of God, we (those blessed of God unto salvation) always "existed" in the mind and purpose of God . . . unconditionallyelected, to be named in the Lamb's Book of Life, as the promised sons of God for Christ.

Nang

 

[ghost]

You are still thinking of movement as a physical thing (I believe).

No, God thinks. "let Us make man"

Whatever and however God moves is also very different than our constraints.

Whatever. The fact is, God is not without thought or knowledge.

I'm unsure if where He dwells needs 'space.'

God exists. he is not nowhere.

You have to have movement without a beginning because God moves and yet has no beginning.

Movement is not created, just as time, thoughts, knowledge, wisdom, love, are not created. All exist because God exists.

 

[ghost]

God is not becoming. God is fully actualized. God is.

Of course, and so is movement, knowledge, etc.

There is no movement within the Godhead.

God never said "Let there be light"?

 

[godrulz]

What does "first moved" mean and entail, in your opinion?





The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always "communicated."

Nang

Because God is personal and triune, love, fellowship, communication, duration, sequence, succession (time), thinking, acting, feeling is from everlasting to everlasting.

Eternal now timelessness is incoherent, unbiblical, not God's experience.

 

[godrulz]

God is not becoming. God is fully actualized. God is.

There is no movement within the Godhead. For more, see the term perichoresis as relates to God. Think of the term as meaning "shared life" or "mutual indwelling". You are in the deep end of the pool now!

AMR

If there is no sequence/succession/duration in God's experiences, then He is not personal. The Bible supports this concept, but does not support your hyper-philosophical ones.

 

[Nang]

Because God is personal

What does that mean?

and triune, love,

Agreed. God is Triune and God is love.

fellowship, communication, duration, sequence, succession (time), thinking, acting, feeling

God is NOT these things . . . God reveals Himself through these means.

is from everlasting to everlasting.

Agreed. God is eternal.

Eternal now timelessness is incoherent, unbiblical, not God's experience.

You are incoherent. I do not understand the conclusion to your random post. . .

Nang

 

[Nang]

He is not personal.

What does that mean? God is "personal?"

 

[godrulz]

Personal beings that have will, intellect, emotions (includes God and us in His image) must think, act, feel sequentially vs one divine simultaneity. This is clearly how Scripture portrays God. Every page of the Bible is misleading if your traditional 'eternal now' view is correct. We can take nothing literally in His revelation if we cannot take such a basic revelation literally.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Personal beings that have will, intellect, emotions (includes God and us in His image) must think, act, feel sequentially vs one divine simultaneity. This is clearly how Scripture portrays God. Every page of the Bible is misleading if your traditional 'eternal now' view is correct. We can take nothing literally in His revelation if we cannot take such a basic revelation literally.

To the open theist any verse that "clearly" portrays God is one that supports their presuppositions about him. When they encounter God with hands and feet, or hearing, or seeing, well, these are merely accommodations to our finitude. Yet, when the open theists run headlong into the same accommodations to our finitude, well, no, of course they are wooden literalisms to be reified by the openist. God does not think discursively, gr, nor does he sit around deliberating. When God reveals himself in this manner in Scripture, it is to give us a means of thinking about him, for we cannot otherwise, unless we were gods ourselves.

For you, gr, there is no transcendence of the divine. Apparently God is just a super-being, something far greater than man, but really not wholly other. God does not think like a man, right? :AMR: So why do you want to make him thus?

AMR