Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Read my response again: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?p=4815036#post4815036

It maintains quite clearly that only elect infants dying in infancy are saved. It does not that all infants that die are elect. Further offered is that we may hope, but never demand, that the children of believers who die are among the elect. Beyond that we should no go. That is clearly my position. Going beyond that is to open the door to all manner of flights of fanciful thinking, including arguing for wholesale abortion to guarantee passage to glory, or denying God's His providential control of His creation.
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Right, so my initial post regarding this wasn't that far off the mark after all then. That being that the logical extension of your belief system applies to infants and the unborn also, and that they're obviously not all part of the 'elect' as you've duly just acknowledged. I'd actually re-edited my original reply to incorporate the notion that there's some privileged hope for the children of believers that's actually rather sickening in its own right. Bad luck for those miscarriages born to those outside of faith then...

You may take the teachings of Scripture summarized in the WCF as pompous rhetoric, but until you mount an argument similar to that provided in the exposition of these summaries from the WCF, there really is nothing to move the discussion forward. Your disdain for one of the greatest summaries of the Christian faith is duly noted.
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Sorry if I don't go into paroxysms of joy over a certain summary of faith that you hold paramount. Well, actually no I'm not. If such an important piece of literature leads people to promote the abhorrent positions that many Calvinists do then it would be better served around what I buy at a fish and chip shop.

Have I not provided the hope for children of believers to believe that their dead children are among the elect? I assume you mean the non-Calvinist parents are believers. Whether Calvinist or not, the hope remains a warrant from Scripture for Christian parents. I have counseled believers on more occasions than I preferred on this very matter. I cannot say much to the non-believing parent, other than to say if their children are among the elect, they will not perish everlastingly. For that matter, one wonders why non-believers would be seeking my counsel in the first place about their children's eternal destiny, for that is now sealed in their death, and in God's hands alone. We know God will do right. By His right. Not by what we think His right ought to be.
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Then you assumed (not for the first time) wrongly. Their belief (or lack thereof) shouldn't even enter the equation, and nobody was even on about any particular parent 'seeking your counsel' either. Frankly I'd sooner you weren't in a position to even do so, with anyone. So hey, you 'offer hope' to specifically believers that their children might not be lost. Well, good for you AMR. What hope have you got to offer the parents who live in the slums of Liberia where adequate toilet facilities are as rare as a talking aardvark?


I am not going to sink into a discussion in some puerile vernacular dripping with sarcasm about sacred matters. You can leave the lob, coulda, etc. for a discussion with the less mature and infelicitous.

AMR
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Oh, I do apologize. I didn't realize that a little bit of slang vernacular would offend your grammatical sensibilities quite so much. But then, considering that you've effectively said I should teach my nieces the gospel 'according to Calvin' & then effectively be glad if they've been 'picked for hell' because it brings glory to God then I'm not quite sure what you're moaning about. There'd be many a parent who would call you all and sundry and I certainly wouldn't blame them.

Oh, my sister is not a Christian and does not teach her daughters via the bible but she loves them to bits and does everything a loving parent could do for their children. But, I guess they're possibly all reprobate so what the heck eh? If my nieces die tomorrow they evidently don't have the same chance of being part of the elect under your system do they?

:plain:
 
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Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Grosnick Marowbe said:
Rose doesn't:

Believe in the Trinity.
Believe humanities souls live throughout eternity.
Understand the fundamentals of Christianity.
Focus on any given topic.
Know a lot about the Bible.
Etc.
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I don't know exactly what Rose believes. What she has shown is a sense of compassion and understanding and that counts for a lot in itself as far as I'm concerned. You undersell her where it comes to focusing on a topic just as you undersold yourself not so long back when I told you it was unlike you to be obtuse...
 
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popsthebuilder

New member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
If you define "salvation" to be nothing but a punctiliar, one-time, event, you are using the word incorrectly, for regeneration (re-birth) is but the beginning of one's conversion process. God's redemptive plan of salvation includes the Golden Chain of foreknowledge, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, union to Christ, adoption, sanctification, and glorification. Hence Scripture's frequent use of the now/not yet tenses when speaking of our salvation.

AMR
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I don't

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L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Grosnick Marowbe said:
So, you believe that a soul can be utterly destroyed, huh? Back up your assertion with Scripture. Also, stay off of that LA Freeway, it's congested with false doctrine and confusion.
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Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Grosnick Marowbe said:
The souls of man will last through eternity. How else could someone inherit the Heavenly kingdom of God after they die? Also, those who die without Christ will spend eternity in the "Lake of Fire." (Hell) That's one of the fundamentals of the Christian faith, so how could it be a lie, LA?
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Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Hall of Fame
Arthur Brain said:
I don't know exactly what Rose believes. What she has shown is a sense of compassion and understanding and that counts for a lot in itself as far as I'm concerned. You undersell her where it comes to focusing on a topic just as you undersold yourself not so long back when I told you it was unlike you to be obtuse...
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Evidently, you've talked yourself into believing, your opinion of me counts for everything in my life. I assure you, I've got bigger fish to fry. Your words don't have the effect on me, that you counted on. You might try another approach? Although, I really don't believe you'll have a different reaction? But, hey, give it a shot, you never know.
 
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popsthebuilder

New member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Those that deny the Trinity have no warrant from Scripture to call themselves Christian believers.

Confessing Christ as our Lord presumes one actually knows who He is and it is the presumption of all Scripture written by those superintended by God the Holy Spirit. As the Psalms teach us, no man can ransom another. Jesus is not mere man.

God the Holy Spirit regenerates the believer. God. The special revelation of God is saturated with the Triune Godhead of three personal subsistences, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For one to be regenerated by God and then be caused to believe God is not Triune, for it is God who is granting the faith of the regenerated, would imply God's house is divided. This is nonsense.

The more you weigh in with sanctimonious denunciations in my direction the more you evidence your confusion about matters of the faith. To confess Jesus is Lord and not believe He is God means one does not understand what Lord actually means.

Truths like the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, the hypostatic union, etc., are essential to salvation. While it may be argued that it is theoretically possible that a person might be saved without believing them, and while God might extraordinarily save a person without the belief of these, yet in the ordinary course of Christian discipleship and growth these truths are a vital part of faith and life. There is a moral obligation to learn and live these precious truths which God has revealed for His glory and our good. A person professing the faith in these circumstances that later disavows the Trinity is one who does not possess the faith.

AMR
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The moral obligation of a Christian is believing and following the teachings example and self sacrifice of the Christ.
As you said yourself; it isn't needed for salvation. Just because it contains some truth doesn't mean one is damned for eternity for not grasping it. Not saying that I don't, just that assuming if one didn't, they would be burned for eternity is just wrong based on any type of morality you want to use. If you agree that the ignorant are safer than those who knowingly don't follow the commands of the Christ then how can you say that those ignorant of the trinity doctrine are doomed to eternal torment?



To say one who isn't a Trinitarian doesn't have faith in GOD is 100% wrong and 0% evidenced in scripture.

Frankly, you are talking out of your butt.



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Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Grosnick Marowbe said:
Evidently, you've talked yourself into believing, your opinion of me counts for everything in my life. I assure you, I've got bigger fish to fry. Your words don't have the effect on me, that you counted on. You might try another approach? Although, I really don't believe you'll have a different reaction? But, hey, give it a shot, you never know.
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I was actually just giving you a compliment...sheesh.
 
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Grosnick Marowbe

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Some posters would rather hide their heads in the sand like an Ostrich, then, face the truth, there's a "Lake of Fire" mentioned in the Bible.
 
Arthur Brain

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Grosnick Marowbe said:
Gee, ya could have fooled me? And, it looks like you did? Maybe?
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Not intentionally. When I said it was unlike you to be obtuse I meant it. You made a post about how uneducated you were which I didn't actually respond to. You're not thick or anything of the sort. I thoroughly disagree with you on many issues but I've never thought you dim witted or the like. Take this how you will.
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

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Hall of Fame
Arthur Brain said:
Not intentionally. When I said it was unlike you to be obtuse I meant it. You made a post about how uneducated you were which I didn't actually respond to. You're not thick or anything of the sort. I thoroughly disagree with you on many issues but I've never thought you dim witted or the like. Take this how you will.
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I don't think harshly of you either.
 
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