Does Calvinism limit God?
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Z Man
New member
Yeah 1Way, there is a mature way to disagree or persuade, or debate.
I thought you wanted to discuss freewill, and so I dived into the conversation answering the questions you came up with. But soon after, everything went down hill. You began ignoring my answers and rejected the notion of commenting on them, other than to insult me and say I was wrong. You called this constructive criticism and acted in a way which lead other's who read this thread to believe that I am in a great need of learning about God and the bible. That's ludicris! I may know more than you do about theology! But who cares! The point is, you look down upon me and you looked down upon those truckers who disagreed with you and you glorify yourself as being absolutely, 100% correct in the ways of Christian theology and doctrine.
Ridiculing me and believing me to be ignorant is immature and I refuse to debate with you unless you deceide you can do it in a mature manner. Quit acting as if your the smartest human being in the world and that God has told you everything there is to know about Him and the Bible, because in all reality, you don't know squat. Don't be so freakin' close-minded either, because we can both learn a lot from each other through debate and meticulous bible study. But that won't ever happen if you stick your nose up in the air and believe that no one can teach you anything about God...
One must be teachable to be a teacher. It is not surprising that we have strong convictions based on our perception of truth. I have revised much of my thinking as I get new light, but I do tend to be dogmatic when I feel I understand an issue. We are not likely experts or correct in all areas.
Z Man,
I haven't been keeping up with this thread lately and I haven't read the exchange between you and 1Way. I just read this post I have quoted.
While you were griping about how rude it was for 1Way to act like/believe that you are ignorant of the Bible, you told him, "you don't know squat" about the Bible.
Others might be more inclined to consider your advice if you followed it yourself.
Z Man
New member
The assumption is that I too do not know squat, which is the truth. There is so much more to learn about God and the Bible. Everytime it's read and studied, something new always pops up. Everytime one christian fellowships with another, ideas are viewed and tested by the Word of God for validity and truth. This is a learning process.
However, 1Way refuses to learn. He thinks he knows all there is to theology...
1Way
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Maybe Z Man or Rolf or Jobeth or someone will point out the error of the following that I listed quite a while back and got virtually no response about it.
quote:
Granting the following:
end quote.
This is for all who think that God controls everything, that sin and evil happen, that it is a sin to not oppose evil when you have the power to do so, and that God is always good. Obviously something is contradictory here.
Of course the reasonable and biblical respose is to realize that does not maticulously control everything and God holds the person responsible for evil not anyone else who is not responsible, like God for example. God is soverign over His creation and ways, He is not in control of evil, God always opposes evil with a righteous response. In fact, it can be argued that if God was to control everything without exception, then that would be evil to do IF God maintains as He does, that He loves man and wants everyone to be saved, yet He forces most to hate Him and to go to Hell. Being carried away with control issues is a sick unhealthy situation, it more closely reflects the desires of the evil rapist kidnapper murder etc.
quote:
Granting the following:
- Sin and evil is that which goes against God and His will
God controls everything including sin and evil
Beings are responsible only and precisely for that which they have control over
God is powerful and good enough to stop all sin and evil
Sin and evil happen on a large and hideous scale in reality
Omitting opposition against sin and evil, is in itself a sin, an evil
end quote.
This is for all who think that God controls everything, that sin and evil happen, that it is a sin to not oppose evil when you have the power to do so, and that God is always good. Obviously something is contradictory here.
Of course the reasonable and biblical respose is to realize that does not maticulously control everything and God holds the person responsible for evil not anyone else who is not responsible, like God for example. God is soverign over His creation and ways, He is not in control of evil, God always opposes evil with a righteous response. In fact, it can be argued that if God was to control everything without exception, then that would be evil to do IF God maintains as He does, that He loves man and wants everyone to be saved, yet He forces most to hate Him and to go to Hell. Being carried away with control issues is a sick unhealthy situation, it more closely reflects the desires of the evil rapist kidnapper murder etc.
1Way
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A break from strife, a call towards unity of faith, pressing on towards Him
A break from strife, a call towards unity of faith, pressing on towards Him
Z Man's response was to not rescue God from being responsible for evil, he evidently sees no contradiction in not opposing evil when you have the power to oppose it as being evil, or said another way, he must disagree with the bible's teachings about sins of omission and not just commission. If you do not respond appropriately against an evil when you easily could have opposed it, then that is a sin of omission, it is evil. He even plainly espoused fatalism such that no matter his personality (and presumably anyone else's, I don't think Z Man thinks God only made him without a free will) and behavior, he is fine with it because after all, God made him the way he is. I remarked that such a wicked idea can support the rapist and murderer or any evil by saying the same blasphemous thing, attributing everything to God is blasphemy, God is not morally responsible for evil, the person who does the evil, is evil, not otherwise.
So if Z Man will respond to my points, I'd ask him to rescue himself from violating the sins of omission issue, he tacitly denies that view, so I'm sure we are all curious as to how he gets around it. Formally restated it basically is.
Beings are responsible only and precisely for that which they have control over
Omitting opposition against sin and evil (when you clearly have the power to oppose), is itself sin and evil
Unlike Z Man's and Freak's misrepresentations of me, I am more than willing and able to debate on a mature level, but unlike some here, when I see a destructively false teaching (an evil) being promoted as a good and godly thing, then I do not want to commit the sin of omission by not using my powers to oppose that evil. We are all here to stand up for God and His truth and righteousness and in various ways and to varying degrees of consistency (and also some hypocrisy by the nicer than God folk), everyone here is doing exactly what I have done. So we all owe each other the general recognition that it is ok to oppose evil, and that it is a natural problem that we all do not believe the same as everyone else, and so our opposition will naturally be variously displayed, even against each other, those who love and trust in God. Perhaps we all feel that all our comments are justified, perhaps not, but when the attitudes are too combatant and based in the flesh, the resolution and reconciliation becomes almost impossible.
I do not "suck at debate, dude", and Z Man is not simply blasphemous (he thinks I am perverting the truth about God too, so of course he is upset w/us open theist, corporate predestinatarians), we are all beloved of God, so lets start acting like His children a bit more consistently. I have no problem personally opposing all omni-causalists and closed theists for promoting fatalism and blasphemy against God, and I have no problem with the fact that people think differently than I do. Ok, so if I am wrong, put your money where your mouth is, say why, and stop making so many personal attacks instead. Any other resentment or ill will that others may feel comes from me, is not intended, and I apologize if I misled anyone to think otherwise.
Our heartfelt contentions remain while the issue is hardly dealt with. I hope we can proceed without diving into the mud again, and if people share a personal disguest, ok, God's word clearly allows and sometimes promotes such things, it's what putting heart to our beliefs is all about, but lets not get hung up in the need to defend self righteousness, it is His righteousness that ultimately counts.
A break from strife, a call towards unity of faith, pressing on towards Him
Z Man's response was to not rescue God from being responsible for evil, he evidently sees no contradiction in not opposing evil when you have the power to oppose it as being evil, or said another way, he must disagree with the bible's teachings about sins of omission and not just commission. If you do not respond appropriately against an evil when you easily could have opposed it, then that is a sin of omission, it is evil. He even plainly espoused fatalism such that no matter his personality (and presumably anyone else's, I don't think Z Man thinks God only made him without a free will) and behavior, he is fine with it because after all, God made him the way he is. I remarked that such a wicked idea can support the rapist and murderer or any evil by saying the same blasphemous thing, attributing everything to God is blasphemy, God is not morally responsible for evil, the person who does the evil, is evil, not otherwise.
So if Z Man will respond to my points, I'd ask him to rescue himself from violating the sins of omission issue, he tacitly denies that view, so I'm sure we are all curious as to how he gets around it. Formally restated it basically is.
Beings are responsible only and precisely for that which they have control over
Omitting opposition against sin and evil (when you clearly have the power to oppose), is itself sin and evil
Unlike Z Man's and Freak's misrepresentations of me, I am more than willing and able to debate on a mature level, but unlike some here, when I see a destructively false teaching (an evil) being promoted as a good and godly thing, then I do not want to commit the sin of omission by not using my powers to oppose that evil. We are all here to stand up for God and His truth and righteousness and in various ways and to varying degrees of consistency (and also some hypocrisy by the nicer than God folk), everyone here is doing exactly what I have done. So we all owe each other the general recognition that it is ok to oppose evil, and that it is a natural problem that we all do not believe the same as everyone else, and so our opposition will naturally be variously displayed, even against each other, those who love and trust in God. Perhaps we all feel that all our comments are justified, perhaps not, but when the attitudes are too combatant and based in the flesh, the resolution and reconciliation becomes almost impossible.
I do not "suck at debate, dude", and Z Man is not simply blasphemous (he thinks I am perverting the truth about God too, so of course he is upset w/us open theist, corporate predestinatarians), we are all beloved of God, so lets start acting like His children a bit more consistently. I have no problem personally opposing all omni-causalists and closed theists for promoting fatalism and blasphemy against God, and I have no problem with the fact that people think differently than I do. Ok, so if I am wrong, put your money where your mouth is, say why, and stop making so many personal attacks instead. Any other resentment or ill will that others may feel comes from me, is not intended, and I apologize if I misled anyone to think otherwise.
Our heartfelt contentions remain while the issue is hardly dealt with. I hope we can proceed without diving into the mud again, and if people share a personal disguest, ok, God's word clearly allows and sometimes promotes such things, it's what putting heart to our beliefs is all about, but lets not get hung up in the need to defend self righteousness, it is His righteousness that ultimately counts.
Z Man
New member
1Way,
Did you not read Rolf's response on post #108 and #111? Those were answers to this question you submit! Yet, you ignore them. You seem to do that a lot. People answer your questions, and you ramble on and on about the same question, stating no one has answered them yet.
In your mind it's contridictory, but how can it be for God? God doesn't sin, yet you just stated that:
"...sin and evil happen...it is a sin to not oppose evil when you have the power to do so..."
So, are you stating that God is not powerful enough to stop sin and evil, thus the reason sin exists and God is still good? The fact that sin does exist and that God is powerful enough to stop with just a wave of His hand, does not denote an evil God, but rather a merciful and gracious God, one who is patient and slow to wrath. His control over evil is to benefit those who love Him; for we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose (Ro 8:28).
What a load of crap! God doesn't force anyone to hate Him or to go to Hell! We go there because we're sinners. We hate God because we're sinners. It's what humans do. We are born hating God.
You're suggesting that man is sooooo innocent before God and that if He does have control over their salvation, He is evil for not saving a person. That's disgusting to me. It really irritates me to hear people defend mankind against God's judgement, as if mankind is innocent before God, or deserving of His love. What has man ever done to deserve the mercies of God? What if we were to get to the pearly gates, and God asked us why He should let us in, what would our response be?
1Way
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Z Man - You said
God is responsible for everything, He controls everything,
no man is the blame for hating God, so man is reponsible for some things.
So I am not presenting to you a load of crap, I am presenting to you, your own arguments and claims and how they apparently contradict each other. Like I said, it's fine to have emotional zeal, but there is no need to defend yourself by attacking me especially while I am trying to analyze your views and understand how you rescue yourself from moral and biblical contradiction.
You go on to say.
Here are the maxims or truth claims that I submit, if you disagree with ANY of them, please just simply say so.
So which is it, who controls and thus is responsible for all sin and evil? God or man? If I was to go by what you just said, it's man, but you repeatedly say that God controls everything without exception. Or do you say that people are not responsible for what they have control over? You seem to alternate back and forth like you can't make up your mind,
God is responsible for everything, He controls everything,
no man is the blame for hating God, so man is reponsible for some things.
So I am not presenting to you a load of crap, I am presenting to you, your own arguments and claims and how they apparently contradict each other. Like I said, it's fine to have emotional zeal, but there is no need to defend yourself by attacking me especially while I am trying to analyze your views and understand how you rescue yourself from moral and biblical contradiction.
You go on to say.
No, I am saying that everyone is responsible for their own actions,
If you have a disagreement with these ideas, then, take a deep non-crap filled breath, and reasonably deal with them. As to your remarks about others dealing with my comments to you, your sense directing my attention is noted, I will search out such supposed responses, I have not already noticed and responded too, last I checked Rolf owes me a response going back quite a ways. They are not you, when we are having a discussion, I tend to consider what you have to say.
Here are the maxims or truth claims that I submit, if you disagree with ANY of them, please just simply say so.
Let's put a bit more respect into respect, gratuitous foul ideas does not characterize a good Christian witness, if you are right, then stand on the solid ground of the truth, not the mud of mud slinging.
If God can USE EVIL FOR GOOD then there is NO ONE to blame.
CAN God USE EVIL FOR GOOD?
If SO, then is it possible that EVIL serves God?
After all if HE IS SO MUCH GREATER than EVIL, then EVIL can SERVE HIM and HIS Purposes.
God says HE CREATED ALL THINGS including EVIL.
ALL THINGS consist BY HIM.
NOTHING that is exists apart from Him.
If you say that THE WILL OF MAN exists APART FROM God's Will, then GOD should not be able to HARDEN something APART from Him. This is DIRECT INTERFERENCE by God and a CONTRADICTION of "free will."
If you say that EVIL exists apart from God's Will then you must say that THE SON was not slated for EXECUTION in ADVANCE of His arrival and that God ROLLED THE DICE with Jesus.
The only reasonable conclusion is that ALL MANkind is saved and GOD is GREATER than ALL THINGS and CONTROLS ALL THINGS.
The only reason Calvinists and Freewillers argue is for the subject of THE DAMNATION OF OTHER PEOPLE besides themselves. Calvinists predetermine people to hell. Freewillers say people send themselves there. The end result is THE SAME so why argue about it?
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John The Apostle
If John's statement is TRUE then GOD HIMSELF is DIRECTLY IMPLICATED in EVERYTHING.
If GOD IS NOT implicated in HIS CREATION, then the CREATION has usurped THE CREATOR. This is NOT POSSIBLE unless you have A WIMP god who cannot CONTROL OR CONTAIN His Own Endeavours.
enjoy!
smaller
CAN God USE EVIL FOR GOOD?
If SO, then is it possible that EVIL serves God?
After all if HE IS SO MUCH GREATER than EVIL, then EVIL can SERVE HIM and HIS Purposes.
God says HE CREATED ALL THINGS including EVIL.
ALL THINGS consist BY HIM.
NOTHING that is exists apart from Him.
If you say that THE WILL OF MAN exists APART FROM God's Will, then GOD should not be able to HARDEN something APART from Him. This is DIRECT INTERFERENCE by God and a CONTRADICTION of "free will."
If you say that EVIL exists apart from God's Will then you must say that THE SON was not slated for EXECUTION in ADVANCE of His arrival and that God ROLLED THE DICE with Jesus.
The only reasonable conclusion is that ALL MANkind is saved and GOD is GREATER than ALL THINGS and CONTROLS ALL THINGS.
The only reason Calvinists and Freewillers argue is for the subject of THE DAMNATION OF OTHER PEOPLE besides themselves. Calvinists predetermine people to hell. Freewillers say people send themselves there. The end result is THE SAME so why argue about it?
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John The Apostle
If John's statement is TRUE then GOD HIMSELF is DIRECTLY IMPLICATED in EVERYTHING.
If GOD IS NOT implicated in HIS CREATION, then the CREATION has usurped THE CREATOR. This is NOT POSSIBLE unless you have A WIMP god who cannot CONTROL OR CONTAIN His Own Endeavours.
enjoy!
smaller
1Way
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Waiter, a full round of consistency please, for OVERYONE.
Waiter, a full round of consistency please, for OVERYONE.
God is greater than all things, His ways are higher than our ways, but they are also not lower than our ways, let alone they are not responsible for any sin nor evil.
Sin and evil is that which goes against God and His will, so if ANY sin or evil ever exists, then God is not in control of everything without exception. As far as blaming goes, don't blame me for bringing up the idea of personal accountability, God established that idea.
Sin is that which goes against God and His will.
Sin exists, it's the main idea behind the reason we need to get saved.
So it is not according to God's will that sin happens.
It is according to God's will that sin can happen, i.e. He would be unrighteous to pretend that loving and just relationships occur when only one person is in complete control of everything.
Waiter, a full round of consistency please, for OVERYONE.
God is greater than all things, His ways are higher than our ways, but they are also not lower than our ways, let alone they are not responsible for any sin nor evil.
Sin and evil is that which goes against God and His will, so if ANY sin or evil ever exists, then God is not in control of everything without exception. As far as blaming goes, don't blame me for bringing up the idea of personal accountability, God established that idea.
Sin is that which goes against God and His will.
Sin exists, it's the main idea behind the reason we need to get saved.
So it is not according to God's will that sin happens.
It is according to God's will that sin can happen, i.e. He would be unrighteous to pretend that loving and just relationships occur when only one person is in complete control of everything.
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Exactly. Evil is contrary to God's nature and Jesus came to oppose it, not affirm it as God's mysterious will. This is one reason 1Way and I are Open Theists and not Calvinists (see, we can agree on some things and be nice to each other...good post).
Canon, not cannon (by the way...from another post).
Z Man
New member
Stating that God is in absolute control, and that He controls everything, are two totally different things.
I don't believe that God sins, of course. But I do believe God uses evil that man creates (it is their nature to sin; it's a product of being human) to display His glory in a greater way.
I call sin any action which is not intended nor does not glorify God.
He is in control of those things.
Implying that God is evil for having the power to stop sin and evil, yet chooses not to, is a dead end street for both the Calvinist and Open Theists view. Of course God has the power to immediately stop sin right now; I hope you believe that as well! But the fact that sin and evil is still present goes to show that God has deceided that now isn't the right time for that. He will eventually destroy all of sin and evil, but time hasn't come yet.
God allows and predestines certain things to happen in certain peoples lives. Some people have a great life, full of blessings, while other's may seem to always be in the pits with a lot of toil and trouble. Everything happens for a reason though. He may not oppose the sin or evil in an individuals life because He knows in His infinite wisdom that greater good will come out of it.
For example, if I do become a fighter pilot, I may be called upon by the President of the United States to shoot down a commercial airliner someday. I may murder a hundred people, but if it's highjacked and on course to destroy something, similiar to 9/11, losing a hundred people is always better than a thousand.
God's scope on reality and time is far more knowledgable than we could ever comprehend. He knows everything, everywhere, everytime. We may not understand why our best friend had to die, but we don't see the big picture like God does. Who knows, maybe that best friend who died could bring family and other friends closer together, who end up going to church for once. Some may be saved in the process of one person's death. Again, look at 9/11. Weeks afterwards, church attendance in America soar. I'm sure several hundred, if not thousands of people came to know Christ during that time. But it took the lives of many people for that to happen.
And of course, the greatest evil ever, the death of Christ, saved billions and billions of people.
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1Way
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Thank you sir! May I have another?! (He wants a double dose of ,,, refutation)
Thank you sir! May I have another?! (He wants a double dose of ,,, refutation)
Z Man - :doh: Before I make a normal at length response, I can't hardly believe your last words
Thank you sir! May I have another?! (He wants a double dose of ,,, refutation)
Z Man - :doh: Before I make a normal at length response, I can't hardly believe your last words
because we covered this ground earlier. I thought I corrected/refuted that notion 6 days and 60 posts ago (click here or see entire post below) when I said the following without meaningful opposing correction.
Now instead of ignoring this at length refutation of your view, please point counter-point.
1Way
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Z Man - You quoted my points, and then said, its no good, because God will stop all evil but that just hasn't happened yet.
Yes, I believe that God is more than powerful enough to stop all evil, but I don't think you got my point by my list. I will take each one and present it to you one at a time and ask you to specifically point out what is wrong with my thinking. Oh, my, but before I do that, I am in shock at the following where you said
Ok, I'll get to the rest of your post in my next post, these land mines you are dropping are getting in the way of things. Please try to be a bit more ,,, careful, or at least spread out the heresies over a wider area and time span. (jokingly serious)
Yes, I believe that God is more than powerful enough to stop all evil, but I don't think you got my point by my list. I will take each one and present it to you one at a time and ask you to specifically point out what is wrong with my thinking. Oh, my, but before I do that, I am in shock at the following where you said
I think I agree with your example, casualties of war are an acceptable risk for a righteous cause, although you should make certain to never sacrifice lives unnecessarily. But you said murder, that's it's ok to murder the few instead of murdering the many. That idea is absolutely wrong. You never do evil and say it is good. The lessor of two evils, is still EVIL. The principle is better stated that casualties of war are a sad but worthwhile risk, although they are a very heavy price to pay, it is worth the cause of just warfare. Politically speaking, you always emphasize the efforts to reduce any unnecessary casualties and deaths, but you should never justify the sacrifice of innocent lives by calling that murder, because in so doing, you are admitting being in the moral wrong, yet I would assume that you believe you would be in the moral right to protect national security in a just warfare effort. Never do evil, that good may come of it. Rom 3:8 teaches that expecting good from evil is a condemnable idea.
Ok, I'll get to the rest of your post in my next post, these land mines you are dropping are getting in the way of things. Please try to be a bit more ,,, careful, or at least spread out the heresies over a wider area and time span. (jokingly serious)
1Way
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After re-reading my last post, I feel the need to re-emphasize the following. Please deeply consider.
Never do evil, that good may come of it. Rom 3:8 condemns the teaching of good coming from evil.
This is such a clear condemnation of a slanderous ungodly teaching and fits perfectly into this discussion about God "using" evil for something good. Never do evil that good may come of it, always respond against evil, like in Judo, he may strike at you, but you throw him over your back. You did not cause or in any way attribute his evil to you, instead you righteously opposed his evil and used his effort against him. The main idea is the righteous response of opposition to evil, not in evil. The response against evil keeps the morality issue separe, you responded right and his evil was opposed, so there is NO need to muddy the waters and say that you used evil for good, like God uses evil for good, etc.
Never do evil, that good may come of it. Rom 3:8 condemns the teaching of good coming from evil.
This is such a clear condemnation of a slanderous ungodly teaching and fits perfectly into this discussion about God "using" evil for something good. Never do evil that good may come of it, always respond against evil, like in Judo, he may strike at you, but you throw him over your back. You did not cause or in any way attribute his evil to you, instead you righteously opposed his evil and used his effort against him. The main idea is the righteous response of opposition to evil, not in evil. The response against evil keeps the morality issue separe, you responded right and his evil was opposed, so there is NO need to muddy the waters and say that you used evil for good, like God uses evil for good, etc.
Z Man
New member
Re: Thank you sir! May I have another?! (He wants a double dose of ,,, refutation)
Re: Thank you sir! May I have another?! (He wants a double dose of ,,, refutation)
Finally...
Re: Thank you sir! May I have another?! (He wants a double dose of ,,, refutation)
That's what I've been saying! You are agreeing with me. God uses evil to thwart evil; to bring about a greater cause or good; to glorify Himself!
Finally...
Nobody ever said that God Himself caused the evil at the cross. I've merely stated that He allowed it.
You're crying over spilt milk. Would it of made you happier if I had just said the word "kill" instead of "murder"? Anyways, you got my point.
1Way
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Evil is mutually exclusive to good
Evil is mutually exclusive to good
godulz (and Z Man too) - Thank you, we agree on a great deal, and I'm grateful for that. Your support is certainly appreciated. (Thanks for the cannon clarification.) Isn't it sad that we have to struggle over good and evil with Christians? The entire bible is the definitive work ever on the issue of good and evil, yet because of false teachings, well intentioned believers are deeply deceived such that the most simple and obvious ideas can be manipulated upside down like good coming from evil. God says, HATE EVIL, love good, establish justice... If you mix and confuse good and evil, then you ELIMINATE justice altogether, and you end up loving (some) evil and hating (some) good.
Evil is mutually exclusive to good
godulz (and Z Man too) - Thank you, we agree on a great deal, and I'm grateful for that. Your support is certainly appreciated. (Thanks for the cannon clarification.) Isn't it sad that we have to struggle over good and evil with Christians? The entire bible is the definitive work ever on the issue of good and evil, yet because of false teachings, well intentioned believers are deeply deceived such that the most simple and obvious ideas can be manipulated upside down like good coming from evil. God says, HATE EVIL, love good, establish justice... If you mix and confuse good and evil, then you ELIMINATE justice altogether, and you end up loving (some) evil and hating (some) good.
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1Way
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This is encouraging!
This is encouraging!
Z Man - Thanks for the response, although our so called agreement has been more like a heated disagreement, but I am glad we "may" be closer in views than previously displayed.
I suggest that if you remain consistent with what you just posted in post 178, and you agree that God holds the person responsible for their own actions and sphere of control, not otherwise, then you should re-think the whole "God is in control of everything without exception" idea. I know you did not use those specific words, but that idea is our contention.
Just so you know, I have no problem saying that God is in control of everything (but not without exception), He is Lord God, the creator of all the universe. God is, some say "sovereign", I say "Lord or creator God", over everything, yet particularly in the case of sin and evil, and because we know that sin and evil are against God and His ways, we know that God does not control everything without exception, because evil and sin happens in a grand scale.
God created man with the ability to love and hate God, to not give man that freedom would represent an arguably sick person who feels the need to control everything, which is closer to what the kidnapper rapist murderer does, than a healthy loving person. God is healthy and good, He can deal with being rejected, and not always controlling everything.
I'd better take a break, my head is spinning (LOL) too much roller coaster.
This is encouraging!
Z Man - Thanks for the response, although our so called agreement has been more like a heated disagreement, but I am glad we "may" be closer in views than previously displayed.
I suggest that if you remain consistent with what you just posted in post 178, and you agree that God holds the person responsible for their own actions and sphere of control, not otherwise, then you should re-think the whole "God is in control of everything without exception" idea. I know you did not use those specific words, but that idea is our contention.
Just so you know, I have no problem saying that God is in control of everything (but not without exception), He is Lord God, the creator of all the universe. God is, some say "sovereign", I say "Lord or creator God", over everything, yet particularly in the case of sin and evil, and because we know that sin and evil are against God and His ways, we know that God does not control everything without exception, because evil and sin happens in a grand scale.
God created man with the ability to love and hate God, to not give man that freedom would represent an arguably sick person who feels the need to control everything, which is closer to what the kidnapper rapist murderer does, than a healthy loving person. God is healthy and good, He can deal with being rejected, and not always controlling everything.
I'd better take a break, my head is spinning (LOL) too much roller coaster.