Does Calvinism limit God?

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Knight

Good question.... yet simple answer.

God created us and delegated that we have our own wills. Yet these wills have logical limitations that are by God's design.

For instance... although we have the freewill and ability to choose and follow God we DO NOT have the freewill nor ability to save ourselves without God's help. Therefore we have freewill within the scope that God ordained.

Thanks for clearing that up, Knight. Now I'm way confused as to what you believe! :chuckle:

 

[jobeth]

So are we as free as a bird in a cage? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Lucky

Thanks for clearing that up, Knight. Now I'm way confused as to what you believe! :chuckle:

:thumb: He argues both sides and once he confused me he started ignoring me.
You'd better take it back before you get the cold shoulder.

 

[Tye Porter]

Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly
Correct and control are 2 different things. There are ways that He can correct a situation, done out of our stupidity or bad choice, if He so desires, without having having to pre-program what our actions will be. If a father catches his son stealing, he can be a part of correcting that situation. He disciplines the child, makes the child give the money back and then some or whatever he thinks necessary in making this circumstance better.

Good response!
So if God regretted/wished something did not happen, like a Good Father, He would take corrective steps?
Does this mean, for example, that if Judas did not betray Jesus, that God would have taken corrective actions to see that somebody else did?
If God told us, through John, that in the end times a certain event would happen, but man and his wicked will took history in another direction, God would take corrective actions?
Would not directing our paths and correcting our missteps be "controlling" our future, even while granting the lost free will?

 

[Poly]

Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Tye Porter


So if God regretted/wished something did not happen, like a Good Father, He would take corrective steps?

Corrective steps as in correcting man's sin? Yes.
Before the flood, God said He was sorry that He made man. He could either allow man to keep going in his downward spiral for generations to come, never getting the chance to experience God due to the severity of such sin at the time or God could be merciful and stop this destruction as He did and start over.

Does this mean, for example, that if Judas did not betray Jesus, that God would have taken corrective actions to see that somebody else did?

If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus I just can't see this being a roadblock for God. "Great, Judas! You didn't betray Jesus like I'd hoped you would. Now everything is ruined!". There would really be no "corrective action" to take here since this suggests that Judas doing the right thing would need to be corrected. Bottom line is, people wanted Jesus dead...period. If Judas hadn't betrayed Him, this would not have stopped people from finding a way to kill Him.

Would not directing our paths and correcting our missteps be "controlling" our future, even while granting the lost free will?

If you mean "controlling" as in the example of the Father taking corrective actions against the son that stole, then yes.

 

[jobeth]

Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly

If you mean "controlling" as in the example of the Father taking corrective actions against the son that stole, then yes.

So are you saying that we are no more free from God's control than a minor dependent child is free from their father's control?

Would you say we have more or less freedom from God's control than a minor dependent child has from its parents' control?

Tye:
I get your point. If Judas had not betrayed Jesus such that Jesus had not been handed over to the authorities, and because of Judas' failure to act, Jesus had been allowed to slip through their fingers once more, and lived to a ripe old age, and died of natural causes, then we would, gasp! still be in our sins, wouldn't we?

 

[Tye Porter]

Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly
If you mean "controlling" as in the example of the Father taking corrective actions against the son that stole, then yes.

Does the father direct his son's steps, as a controlling method?

Knight pointed out, several times, making it very clear, that while a man's wicked heart may plan his own ways, the Lord steps in and directs his paths.
You and I may desire and make plans, but God "corrects" us and directs our paths.
Knight goes on...
He shows that while we make preparations, the ultimate answer comes from the Lord.
That God establishes our thoughts.


As you can see, the Bible clearly states that while we have the freewill to make our choices/desires/plans, the Lord directs our paths/thoughts.
He is in ultimate control of where we are going.
Our future is not open if God is directing where it is we are going and what we are thinking on the way there.

 

[Poly]

Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Tye Porter



Knight pointed out, several times, making it very clear, that while a man's wicked heart may plan his own ways, the Lord steps in and directs his paths.

You'll have to show me where Knight said that a man's wicked heart gets his paths directed by God.

Originally posted by Knight

Us men have our own heart - and our own will.... but if we rely of God He will direct our steps. If man had no will why would God have said... "A man’s heart plans his way,?

Lets drive home the point.....

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

"lean not on your own understanding;" Our own understanding?????? How can we have our "own understanding" if we have no will of our own? And why does God go to the trouble of telling us to acknowledge Him so that He can direct our paths if we can't help but have Him direct our paths???

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

QUESTION: When does He direct our paths???????
ANSWER: When we lean not on our own understandings and acknowledge Him in all of our ways.

It seems pretty clear to me that He was saying that those that "lean not on their own understanding" and those that "Trust in the Lord" are the ones that get their paths directed by the Lord. I think you know this too and are just trying to twist words.

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Knight goes on...
He shows that while we make preparations, the ultimate answer comes from the Lord.
That God establishes our thoughts.

Again, I have no idea where you're getting this.

Originally posted by Knight Isn't this a simple concept? How much more clear could God be? IF... you commit your works to the LORD... THEN... your thoughts will be established.

Isn't this a miniature version of the entire gospel message? Put your trust in God and He will guide your ways.

Which is exactly why I brought up....
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

This is like step by step instruction from God...

1. Trust in the LORD with all your heart
2. lean not on your own understanding
3. In all your ways acknowledge Him
4. And He shall direct your paths.

You seem less than sincere in your "Hey, what's the big deal? I'm only trying to seek answers here. You're just misunderstanding" comments.

Originally posted by Tye Porter

As you can see, the Bible clearly states that while we have the freewill to make our choices/desires/plans, the Lord directs our paths/thoughts.
He is in ultimate control of where we are going.

No, I don't clearly see this. But as you can clearly see, by the verses given early, what the bible states is that the one who trusts and seeks God is the one whose paths will be directed by Him.

Originally posted by Tye Porter
Our future is not open if God is directing where it is we are going and what we are thinking on the way there.

Why not? God directs us along the way in real time, at the very present moment we are in, freeing Him to make decisions right now concerning us. Sounds open to me.

 

[Tye Porter]

Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly
I have no idea where you're getting this.
No, I don't clearly see this.

But as you can clearly see, by the verses given early, what the bible states is that the one who trusts and seeks God is the one whose paths will be directed by Him.

Good, you're getting closer.
You've come to the point where you see that man has free will to choose God or deny Him.
Once we've chosen Him, our future is closed.
We become stewards of the Will of God.
He directs our paths.

Why not? God directs us along the way in real time, at the very present moment we are in, freeing Him to make decisions right now concerning us. Sounds open to me.

How can you double speak like that?
You say that God directs you along, in real time, then you say that is "open"?
You used your freewill, "X" years ago to choose God.
You seek Him.
You acknowledge Him.
You trust in Him.

He directs you.
He controls your path.
It is closed.


I think you may be going two ways here.
You, like Knight, are showing me that the future is closed.

You can have it either way, it's not a salvation issue.
Except that it kinda may be.

I asked Knight this and maybe I ought to ask you this too. (it's coming)

You two have shown me, very clearly, that the future is closed.
Controlled/Directed by God, for those who are saved.

If you can take what you've shown me and still claim that the future is open, does this mean that you two think that you can loose your salvation?

If God directs that path of a saved man but his future is still open, that would mean that God is directing it only off and on.
Which, according to what you and Knight have shown me, would mean that you are seeking Him, then not, then seeking him, then not.
Kinda like Zakath.
He claims to have been a Christian, and now he's not.

What do you think?

 

[Poly]

Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Good, you're getting closer.

Tye, don't patronize me.

You say that God directs you along, in real time, then you say that is "open"?

Yes

You used your freewill, "X" years ago to choose God.
You seek Him.
You acknowledge Him.
You trust in Him.

He directs you.
He controls your path.
It is closed.

See, it's these kind of tactics I notice in you Tye that really bothers me. Everything you just said is true until you threw in "He controls your path" which you know full well you are using ambiguously since you've been given more than enough examples of what I feel it means for God to have control. You're being unfair to your argument. You're doing the same thing again here:

You two have shown me, very clearly, that the future is closed.
Controlled/Directed by God, for those who are saved.

Directed? Yes Controlled? Not in the way you are implying.

If God directs that path of a saved man but his future is still open, that would mean that God is directing it only off and on.
Which, according to what you and Knight have shown me, would mean that you are seeking Him, then not, then seeking him, then not.

Where do you get stuff like this? Seeking him then not? You either seek Him and He guides you, or you don't. What's with the back and forth stuff? Some have fallen away, but most don't. And unfortunately, a lot of the time, those that do, don't come back.

Kinda like Zakath.
He claims to have been a Christian, and now he's not.

What do you think?

I think He claimed to be a Christian just as he said and I'm sure He was sincere about it. Are you suggesting that since there was a time in His life that He made a choice to follow God that He is now bound by that? What do you think is going to happen on judgment day?
God: "Sorry, Zak, I know you don't believe in me but since at one time you did you gotta go to heaven."
Zak: "But I don't wanna!"
God doesn't force people to love Him because that ultimately isn't love at all.

 

[jobeth]

Tye:

Good, you're getting closer.
You've come to the point where you see that man has free will to choose God or deny Him.
Once we've chosen Him, our future is closed.
We become stewards of the Will of God.
He directs our paths.

You're getting closer.
Yes God directs our path. But does God direct the paths of us only, and not the paths of the whole world?

Genesis 20:6 (KJV)
And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

How do we know that whenever a wicked person refrains from performing the evil lust in his heart, that it was not just God withholding them from sinning?


Doesn't the bible say that God is currently restraining the wicked?

2 Thes. 2:7 (ESV)
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

 

[Tye Porter]

Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly

Tye, don't patronize me.
See, it's these kind of tactics I notice in you Tye that really bothers me. Everything you just said is true until you threw in "He controls your path" which you know full well you are using ambiguously since you've been given more than enough examples of what I feel it means for God to have control. You're being unfair to your argument.

You and Knight are both doing this.

I don't know who, nor do I care to know who Calvin is, unless he comes with a hobbes.

I do know that the verses Knight used support what y'all call "closed theism".

If you two want to cop attitudes and get all "Beobebobish" on me, that's kewl.

I won't have anything more to do with it.

You two cannot be shown you're wrong without getting offended.

Your opinions are not salvation issues so it is not worth the sour attitudes from the two of you to dicuss this further.

Cheers.

 

[Sealeaf]

Don't you know that everyone who will get into heaven will have first surrendered their will to God? And if you surrendered you will to God, then how can you claim to still have a will of your own?

You can't surrender what you don't actually have. This quote is a clear affirmation of free will. No one can give up what he does not have. If I can surrender my will to God then I have a free will. If I have no free will then I can't make choices.

Calvinism does not just limit God, it enslaves Him. Calvinism's God has no more free will than any mortal. He is locked into doing every thing He can do. Calvin makes no allowence for God chosing to not act on something that he is aware of. If God could chose not to control anything, then the whole edifice of determinism falls on its face. If any one thing can possibly be free then everything might be free. If God can chose to not control a murderer when he is sinning, then how can we be sure He is controling a saint when he is sainting?

Determinism also destroys the goodness of God. If in some way God remains free while everything else is bound to His will, then He is clearly responsible for every evil in the world. Hitler killed no Jews, God did it. Hitler did not even think up the idea on his own. God conceived it, God executed it, God is responsible for it.
God is directly, personely resposible for every rape, murder and torture ever committed against any human victim.

 

[godrulz]

Thank you Poly, Knight, and Sealeaf for your clarity. Your thoughts are cogent and defensible.

Predeterminism (Christian fatalism?) takes the responsibility for good and evil from God's free moral agents and puts it back on God (contrary to His nature, character, and Moral Law).

How do the rest of you function in real life? Do you really believe God is controlling every key stroke as you type, that He dictates where and when you drive, that He causes people (Christian or non-Christian) to look at porn and masturbate (sorry for trying to make a point), etc.?

Every Christian is a practical 'open theist' living life like we genuinely have free will and are able to make choices with multiple alternatives or possibilities. To be an academic predeterminist may be an interesting exercise, but it distorts the revelation of God and His history in Scripture.

No wonder Zakath rejects this caricature of Christianity and God.

 

[spadesalone]

FILTER YOUR LOGIC THROUGH SCRIPTURE AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND PLEASE.

 

[godrulz]

Do not underestimate the danger of wearing glasses based on our pre-conceived theologies (a wrong assumption leads to a wrong conclusion...begging the question/circular reasoning...assuming the point one is trying to prove).

Scriptural revelation, not rationalism, is our authority (when properly translated and interpreted).

 

[spadesalone]

bla bla bla

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by spadesalone

bla bla bla

[not-too-subtle irony]That's a bully of an argument spades.[/not-too-subtle irony]

But by dismissing godrulz with a "bla, bla, bla," aren't you a little concerned that he will feel like a dolt, for assuming he was engaging with an adult in a serious discussion?

I hope I don't make the mistake of discussing anything of a serious nature with you.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Does Calvinism limit God?

Originally posted by Poly
You'll have to show me where Knight said that a man's wicked heart gets his paths directed by God.

LOL... don't bother asking Tye for that question... he won't be able yo show you... but he wont let that stop him from misrepresenting my words.

Oh well.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Tye states...

I do know that the verses Knight used support what y'all call "closed theism".

If you two want to cop attitudes and get all "Beobebobish" on me, that's kewl.

I won't have anything more to do with it.

You two cannot be shown you're wrong without getting offended.

Your opinions are not salvation issues so it is not worth the sour attitudes from the two of you to dicuss this further.

Cheers.

Tye I keep wondering why you try to argue that I am stating something that I am not. Wouldn't it be more fun to discuss/argue/debate the things I ACTUALLY say?

Maybe your arguments against mine are valid... maybe my arguments against yours are valid. But how will we ever know until you actually address what I have been saying instead of some odd opposite misrepresentation of what I am saying?

And then you wonder why I get offended.