docrob57 put your money where your mouth is.

[docrob57]

docrob, you seemed well versed but I have encountered this precise A-Z logic before and I think you should moderate somewhat for several reasons. First salvation does not rest in 100% doctrinal accuracy because every Christian is at different stages in their walk with the Lord. We are asked first to repent and trust Christ for the salvation of our souls, this is the beginnging of our walk. Second even among Calvinists there is a wide range of beliefs, consider the Lords supper. Third unless someone comes out and says that Christ is not coming or that Christ was not God on what basis are they going to hell. Fourth if your doctrine is off by even 1% techinically you are false teacher. Lastly a person should be judged based on the fruit they bare - profession of faith, helping the sick, weak, widows, a persons speech, self sacrifice, desire to grow in grace. Is there something more explicit in OV theology that im missing? Can a Catholic be Christian? A southern Baptist? ---Anyway just my two cents

I agree with all you have said here, and of course we are all errant to one degree or another in our doctrine. However, there is also doctrine which pushes beyond the boundaries of acceptibility. For reasons I have stated, I beleive the OV to do that.

 

[Machaira]

This is a fasinating statement to me. The open view does allow man and Satan to make their own decisions and evil can, and frequintly does, result from our choices. But they are our choices, attributed soley to us, not to God. Thus man and Satan, not God, are responsible for evil.

The settled view of your statement is what I find so fasinating. In the settled view, God is responsible for every action by every created being. So God is directly responsible for every evil act. A rape is preordained by God for God glory (can you explain that to me)? The doctors and police officers that help a rape victum do so only because they have preordained by God to do so. A child is killed for Gods glory. Every one of the many divorices (that God HATES) must take place for Gods glory because He has preordained it so. Under the settled view, there can be no sin because God directs everything and everything is done for His Glory. I don't get it. It is the most depressing, evil and hopeless rendition of the gospel I have ever heard!

Have I missed something?

Yeah . . . you missed the fact that God is not the author of man's sinfulness, as Doc just pointed out. The Bible says as much and the WCF concurs.

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

So far I haven't seen any complaints about what God did for you in Christ. How do you like this "rendition of the Gospel?"

 

[CabinetMaker]

Yes. God is not the author of sin. Man is always responsible for sin. God in his omnipotence, can use man's evil for His perfect purposes. The crucifixion is the obvious and best example.

The open view tries to make God understandable by bringing him down to your level. That is a bad mistake.

You are not making any sense. If God is responsible for every action mankind takes, hoe is He not responsible for our sins? Is God responsible for our actions or not?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Yeah . . . you missed the fact that God is not the author of man's sinfulness, as Doc just pointed out. The Bible says as much and the WCF concurs.

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

So far I haven't seen any complaints about what God did for you in Christ. How do you like this "rendition of the Gospel?"

Same question to you. If God is responsible for every action I make, how is He not responsible for my actions? The settled view means I have no free will so whatever I do MUST be Gods will. How can God not be the author of mans sin when His will is the only thing we are capable of?

I am really trying to understand your point of view so please answer.

 

[docrob57]

Same question to you. If God is responsible for every action I make, how is He not responsible for my actions? The settled view means I have no free will so whatever I do MUST be Gods will. How can God not be the author of mans sin when His will is the only thing we are capable of?

I am really trying to understand your point of view so please answer.

No the "settled view" (otherwise known as Christianity) holds neither that you are not responsible for your actions nor that you have no free will. Many of us here have tried over and over to explain this to you guys. It just won't sink in! I begin to think that maybe it is just one of those things that requires an indwelling of the Spirit to understand.

 

[docrob57]

You are not making any sense. If God is responsible for every action mankind takes, hoe is He not responsible for our sins? Is God responsible for our actions or not?

I never said that God is responsible for every action that making takes. That is your misrepresentation.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Okay, I have answered this question at least 3 times, but I will try once more from a different angle, and this is going to be it because I am getting really tired of it.

Docrob, not only have you not answered three times, you don't even answer in THIS new post!

You need to make a BIBLICAL case that demonstrates why a person who accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior is NOT SAVED if they are not a Calvinist.

That is what you need to show (biblically).

And since you cannot do that, you will continue you make a fool of yourself for all the world to see.

First, I said that I did not think OVers were saved. I also said I hoped either that I was wrong or that you would repent.

Don't forget you also said it was just an "exercise". :chuckle: You really don't know what you think do you?

 

[CabinetMaker]

I never said that God is responsible for every action that making takes. That is your misrepresentation.

Help with the right interpretation. It sounds like you just said that man has some atonomy and can make some decisions on his own. Is that closer to hyour view?

 

[docrob57]

Help with the right interpretation. It sounds like you just said that man has some atonomy and can make some decisions on his own. Is that closer to hyour view?

Man makes all decisions on his own. However, he makes them in a context that is controlled by God. God knows what man will do in the contexts that he exists. In that manner, God is able to use man's evil for His good purposes.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Man makes all decisions on his own. However, he makes them in a context that is controlled by God. God knows what man will do in the contexts that he exists. In that manner, God is able to use man's evil for His good purposes.

Do your Calvinist friends know you aren't a Calvinist? :think:

 

[CabinetMaker]

No the "settled view" (otherwise known as Christianity) holds neither that you are not responsible for your actions nor that you have no free will. Many of us here have tried over and over to explain this to you guys. It just won't sink in! I begin to think that maybe it is just one of those things that requires an indwelling of the Spirit to understand.

Probably because your english is so bad I have no idea what that sentence said. I think you said that we are responsible for our actions and that we have free will. Is that what you said?

 

[docrob57]

Docrob, not only have you not answered three times, you don't even answer in THIS new post!

You need to make a BIBLICAL case that demonstrates why a person who accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior is NOT SAVED if they are not a Calvinist.

That is what you need to show (biblically).

And since you cannot do that, you will continue you make a fool of yourself for all the world to see.

Don't forget you also said it was just an "exercise". :chuckle: You really don't know what you think do you?

I know the following -

You and your brood of OVers are a bunch of ignorant jabbering jackasses who couldn't argue their way out of a paper bag.
You have absolutely NO capacity to deal with complexity. I begin to wonder if you are an assembly of fetal alcohol babies.
You are abusive and arrogant, and you love being that way.
You are pathetic.

Amen.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I know the following -

You and your brood of OVers are a bunch of ignorant jabbering jackasses who couldn't argue their way out of a paper bag.
You have absolutely NO capacity to deal with complexity. I begin to wonder if you are an assembly of fetal alcohol babies.
You are abusive and arrogant, and you love being that way.
You are pathetic.

Amen.

Wow!!! Stunning.

Your usage of biblical arguments to back-up your assertions is amazing! My guess is you are compelling everyone reading these threads that you are right and we are wrong.

:up:

 

[CabinetMaker]

Man makes all decisions on his own. However, he makes them in a context that is controlled by God. God knows what man will do in the contexts that he exists. In that manner, God is able to use man's evil for His good purposes.

How does this context work? For the sake of argument, a man is lusting after a woman. He can make a decision to either ignor the lust or rape her. He decides to raper her and murder her. That decisioon was made by that man in God's context that that evil act would bren glory to God. Can you put that in context for me?

 

[docrob57]

Wow!!! Stunning.

Your usage of biblical arguments to back-up your assertions is amazing! My guess is you are compelling everyone reading these threads that you are right and we are wrong.

:up:

I have given you Biblical arguments, logical arguments and just plain arguments.

If anyone reading these threads is compelled by the trash you constantly shovel out, then heaven help them.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I have given you Biblical arguments, logical arguments and just plain arguments.

What biblical argument have you presented that shows that only Calvinists can be saved? Where is it? Can you point us to it?

For you to be correct you need to give a biblical argument that defeats the following....

...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Machaira]

..................

 

[RayOfLight]

Machaira,
I agree with you. Proverbs are generally true, but not universally. A good example of this are Proverbs 16:1, 9 & 33 where we are told that the but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD, the Lord directs man's steps, and the decision of the lot being cast is wholly from the Lord. This isn't always true. Therefore, these texts are not meant to be used for meticulous control. It is that simple. You know, I am glad you've seen the light. It's about time. Glad to see you are finally coming around. Thank the Lord!

 

[docrob57]

What biblical argument have you presented that shows that only Calvinists can be saved? Where is it? Can you point us to it?

For you to be correct you need to give a biblical argument that defeats the following....

...if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

From Calvin's commentary on Romans

9. That if thou wilt confess, etc. Here is also an allusion, rather than a proper and strict quotation: for it is very probable that Moses used the word mouth, by taking a part for the whole, instead of the word face, or sight. But it was not unsuitable for the Apostle to allude to the word mouth, in this manner: -- "Since the Lord sets his word before our face, no doubt he calls upon us to confess it." For wherever the word of the Lord is, it ought to bring forth fruit; and the fruit is the confession of the mouth.

By putting confession before faith, he changes the order, which is often the case in Scripture: for the order would have been more regular if the faith of the heart had preceded, and the confession of the mouth, which arises from it, had followed. 5 But he rightly confesses the Lord Jesus, who adorns him with his own power, acknowledging him to be such an one as he is given by the Father, and described in the gospel.

Express mention is made only of Christ's resurrection; which must not be so taken, as though his death was of no moment, but because Christ, by rising again, completed the whole work of our salvation: for though redemption and satisfaction were effected by his death, through which we are reconciled to God; yet the victory over sin, death, and Satan was attained by his resurrection; and hence also came righteousness, newness of life, and the hope of a blessed immortality. And thus is resurrection alone often set before us as the assurance of our salvation, not to draw away our attention from his death, but because it bears witness to the efficacy and fruit of his death: in short, his resurrection includes his death. On this subject we have briefly touched in the sixth chapter.

It may be added, that Paul requires not merely an historical faith, but he makes the resurrection itself its end. For we must remember the purpose for which Christ rose again; -- it was the Father's design in raising him, to restore us all to life: for though Christ had power of himself to reassume his soul, yet this work is for the most part ascribed in Scripture to God the Father.


10. For with the heart we believe 6 unto righteousness, etc. This passage may help us to understand what justification by faith is; for it shows that righteousness then comes to us, when we embrace God's goodness offered to us in the gospel. We are then for this reason just, because we believe that God is propitious to us in Christ. But let us observe this, -- that the seat of faith is not in the head, (in cerebro -- in the brain,) but in the heart. Yet I would not contend about the part of the body in which faith is located: but as the word heart is often taken for a serious and sincere feeling, I would say that faith is a firm and effectual confidence, (fiducia -- trust, dependence,) and not a bare notion only.

With the mouth confession is made unto salvation. It may seem strange, that he ascribes no part of our salvation to faith, as he had before so often testified, that we are saved by faith alone. But we ought not on this account to conclude that confession is the cause of our salvation. His design was only to show how God completes our salvation, even when he makes faith, which he implants in our hearts, to show itself by confession: nay, his simple object was, to mark out true faith, as that from which this fruit proceeds, lest any one should otherwise lay claim to the empty name of faith alone: for it ought so to kindle the heart with zeal for God's glory, as to force out its own flame. And surely, he who is justified has already obtained salvation: hence he no less believes with the heart unto salvation, than with the mouth makes a confession. You see that he has made this distinction, -- that he refers the cause of justification to faith, -- and that he then shows what is necessary to complete salvation; for no one can believe with the heart without confessing with the mouth: it is indeed a necessary consequence, but not that which assigns salvation to confession.

But let them see what answer they can give to Paul, who at this day proudly boast of some sort of imaginary faith, which, being content with the secrecy of the heart, neglect the confession of the mouth, as a matter superfluous and vain; for it is extremely puerile to say, that there is fire, when there is neither flame nor heat.

 

[Servo]

I have given you Biblical arguments, logical arguments and just plain arguments.

If anyone reading these threads is compelled by the trash you constantly shovel out, then heaven help them.

All part of God's plan! PTL!