Do You Judge Your Own Thoughts?
- Thread starter Squeaky
- Start date
DavidK
New member
You've got the tunnel vision here. You are taking a statement about a specific situation, and trying to expand it to be universal.
I think it's beautiful how you regard scripture (the verses) so highly. There are plenty of believers who need that; the church is awash in doctrines of men that are not born up by scripture. But context is absolutely vital. Scripture is not a series of single, independent proverbs you can pull out and spin understanding from. Even in the book of Proverbs the surrounding proverbs can give a lot of understanding into a single one.
One of the tragedies of theology is this over-emphasis on lists of proof-texts to argue a point. The story of scripture, which is the story of our Lord's relationship with us, is as, if not more, important than putting together a few lines of scripture to defend an argument. The scripture is first and foremost about getting to know Him, not constructing a cosmology or a set of best practices. We are in the new covenant, with the law no longer written on tablets of stone, but on our hearts, with the Holy Spirit living inside us in the most intimate of communion.
Press on, Squeaky, past the collection of verses you have built your doctrines on. Immerse yourself in the vast sweep of scripture and get to know the character of our beautiful Lord.
I said
That is an oxymoron. Without the Verses in you there is no proof one has the support of the Holy Spirit. And without that support all one has is theology. Theology is spiritual theory, and theory is guessing.
Jhn 5:37
“And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Jhn 5:38
“But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe.
Jhn 5:39
“You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
5:40
“But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
DavidK
New member
I completely agree, but the verses do not exist as little unconnected snippets. Scripture is a series of histories, songs, poems and letters, not sliced-up, self-contained pearls of theology. You can't take them out of context and say they mean something that doesn't fit the whole.
Did you know that the chapter divisions weren't added to the bible until the 13th century? Up until that point, they were read like we would read any other book. Sentence flowed into sentence like the authors wrote them. The verse divisions weren't added until three hundred years later! When you pull single verses from their surroundings and try to found doctrines based on the English words translated 15 centuries after they were written you do violence to the meaning.
This makes my point exactly. Using the scriptures as little proof-texts leads people into error. They have to add up to a picture of our Lord and His relationship to us. In this verse you quote, Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees (not with a parable, by the way) for knowing the scripture well, but not knowing the author nor subject of them. They had lots and lots of "verses".
I said
I think you missed the point. He said they search, not that they had the Word abiding in them. Big difference.
If they had lots of verses in them they wouldn't have to search.
Jhn 5:39
“You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
DavidK
New member
Nope, didn't miss the point. They're using the verses as scaffold for theological argument, rather than to have the character of God written in them. That comes of treating scripture as a collection of proof-texts rather than a testimony of God's relationship with us.
I said
Ok explain something to me. Are you looking for a relationship with God outside the written Word? I have always see that character thing as outside of scripture from the devil.
Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
DavidK
New member
I'm looking for relationship with Him in the written word, the scripture. But it doesn't come by snipping out individual verses and trying to understand them isolated from the rest of scripture. It comes from understanding His desire and His plan as revealed through the entirety of scripture.
I said
I can show you the only guarantee in the whole entire bible. The Holy Spirit that only quotes verses.
Jhn 14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
2Co 5:5
Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[fn] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
True, but this is a public message board where one can not say much outside of scripture, for good reasons.
LA
LA
DavidK
New member
Thanks, LA. I'm not denigrating scripture, or even denegrating quoting it. I'm trying to relay to Squeaky that a lot of the verses he uses don't mean what he thinks they mean, because he's pulled them out of their context and tried to make sense of them as fragments of thought that stand alone.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
he claims that they are "revelations" given to him
you're never gonna get him to admit otherwise :idunno:
DavidK
New member
None of those verses say that the Holy Spirit only quotes scripture, even taken all together.
And I want to be very clear, there's no problem with quoting scripture. There is a ton of problem with trying to say what they mean without the context they are written in.
Yes, well we all have our problems at some time.
I awoke this morning thinking I was talking to myself but then realized the Lord was talking to me about some of my mistakes in life, which are not unique to me alone.
LA
I said
Ok I guess I'll have to break it down for you.
This verse says the Holy Spirit brings to remembrance what Jesus has "said" Not going to say, not might have said. But what Jesus has already said to you. By quoting the verse.
14:26
“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Now this one says that the Holy Spirit is not allowed to speak any other way. The Holy Spirit is NOT allowed to speak on His own authority. He will take from what is already Christs which is the new testament verses.
Jhn 16:13
“However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
“He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
This Holy Spirit is the only guarantee in the whole bible from God
2Co 5:5
Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
And if we can walk after this Holy Spirit NOTHING on earth can condemn us.
Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[fn] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
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DavidK
New member
You do this a lot. This is just like your "Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables" confusion.
If I say "He only spoke to them in parables" that does not mean he never spoke to anyone in anything but a parable. If I say, "The Holy Spirit will remind you what I said," that doesn't mean He can't do anything else.
This is exactly what I mean by pulling verses out of context and expanding them to mean big things they don't actually mean.
I said
Well that's the difference between me and you. I believe the Word the way it is written. And you put your own little spin on it to fit what you like.
Jhn 7:38
“He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”
One of the rules of believing is "Don't think beyond what is written" but you seem to want to put the human equation in it.
1Co 4:6
Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.