Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian?

[Apple7]

How is that even Trinitarianism? Your own avatar states the opposite when it says, "The Father is not the Son" and according to many passages YHWH is clearly the Father.

You deceitfully dwell upon verses mentioning God The Father, to the exclusion of the others.

This is intellectual dishonesty.

Kinda like a politician who tells a half-truth so that he can't be accused of lying...

 

[genuineoriginal]

Example #1:

Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10.9)


Who raised Jesus from the dead?

• God the Father… Acts 3.26; Eph 1.15-20; Gal 1.1; 1 Thes 1.9-10
• God the Son…John 2.19-22; 10.17-18; Romans 6.4
• God the Spirit…Romans 8.11; 1 Peter 3.18
• The Trinity…Romans 10.9; Peter 1.20-21; Hebrews 13.20-21; 1 Cor 6.14; Col 2.11-12; Acts 2.23-24; 2.32; 3.14-15; 13.30-37


Thus…you will be saved if you believe in The Triune God, as revealed in scripture.

Simple, Biblical truth.

You seem to have ignored simple Biblical truth in order to hold to the extra-Biblical teachings of the Trinity.

Let's look at some of the verses you posted as "proof" that you can't really understand what is written in the Bible.

You gave this verse as "proof" that Jesus raised Himself up from the dead, but the verse clearly states that Jesus was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father.

Romans 6:4 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

You gave this verse as proof that Jesus was raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit, but the verse clearly says that it is the Spirit of Him (The Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead.

Romans 8:11 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.​

Why don't you try reading what is actually written instead of hoping it says what you want it to say?

 

[Dan Emanuel]

...There are no scriptures that say you must believe in the Trinity, nor are there any scriptures that say God Himself died on the cross.

So, there should be no reason for any church to impose a requirement to believe in the Trinty on Christians when it is not found in the Bible...

You're implicit assumption is that we should refer only to Scripture when deciding doctrine. Scripture itself deny's this notion. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 KJV They're is no evidence to, nor scriptural claim that suggest's that every single 1 of "the traditions which ye have been taught . . . by word," are now included for us in the New Testament, so it is clearly in direct violation of Scripture, to today or at any other time, rely solely upon the Scripture as our lone objective authority in determining matter's of faith, doctrine and moral's, without seeking to know and understand and believe and be guided by these "traditions which ye have been taught . . . by word."

They are Apostolic tradition's; not "tradition's of men."

...Maybe you are right and Christ making intercession with God on our behalf does not conflict with some of the variations of belief in the Trinity...

It doesn't conflict with the Holy Catholic Trinity. I couldn't care less about any other variation.

...But, maybe you are wrong and Christ making intercession with God is in the verse to show us that we are not to try to confuse Christ with God when for all practical purposes God is used as a reference to the Father alone.

Why would they're be verse's in the Bible that are designed specifically to deny the Trinity? Matthew 28:18-19 KJV


DJ

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[genuineoriginal]

You're implicit assumption is that we should refer only to Scripture when deciding doctrine.

Yes.

Scripture itself deny's this notion. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 KJV

That verse is about traditions, not about doctrine.

Here is what Paul states about doctrine:

2 Timothy 3:16 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

They are Apostolic tradition's; not "tradition's of men."
It doesn't conflict with the Holy Catholic Trinity. I couldn't care less about any other variation.

No, they are not Apostolic traditions, they are Roman Catholic traditions that arose many years after the Apostles were no longer around to prevent them.

Why would they're be verse's in the Bible that are designed specifically to deny the Trinity? Matthew 28:18-19 KJV

The verses in the Bible are not designed to deny the Trinity.

Since the Trinity is not a concept taught by the Bible, it is the doctrine of the Trinity that must be questioned to see if it is designed specifically to deny the scriptures.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

...That verse is about traditions, not about doctrine...

OK, then please weigh in on specifically which tradition's that Paul is writing about their. Baptism and communion?

Do you believe in either?

...Here is what Paul states about doctrine:

2 Timothy 3:16 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

Does "is profitable" mean that Scripture alone is our sole authority in all matter's of faith, doctrine and moral's?

...No, they are not Apostolic traditions, they are Roman Catholic traditions that arose many years after the Apostles were no longer around to prevent them...

Whats "they" refer to? Do you mean the Trinity?

The fact is, that the Scripture is far from clear about the nature of God in the New Testament. They're is some confusion in the Old Testament, but nothing like in the New. As soon as Jesus enter's the picture, the idea of God as 1 in every way imaginable become's cloudy, because of the language --written by Apostle's --used to talk about our Lord.

1 obvious example is in calling Him "Lord."

Another conundrum is the Holy Spirit --is He the Father Himself, or is the Spirit distinct from the Father in some way? In any way, really; because if the Holy Spirit is in any way distinct from the Father then you have a problem to solve, while remaining monotheistic. And the same goes for Jesuses' multiple statement's indicating that He and the Father are in some sense the same; even while they're clearly is distinction between Them also.

...The verses in the Bible are not designed to deny the Trinity...

Of course not, since the Trinity was either on the mind's of the Apostle's when writing there book's, or the Trinity was not; either way, no verse's should ever be found that were specifically designed to disparage the Trinity. It was either "a thing" (in which case the Trinity is the truth), or it wasn't; in which case the Trinity is a man-made invention; which is you're view.

...Since the Trinity is not a concept taught by the Bible, it is the doctrine of the Trinity that must be questioned to see if it is designed specifically to deny the scriptures.

I don't disagree with you here.


DJ

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[genuineoriginal]

Does "is profitable" mean that Scripture alone is our sole authority in all matter's of faith, doctrine and moral's?

Scripture is the highest authority, and trumps any self-proclaimed authority of any self-appointed Magisterium.

The fact is, that the Scripture is far from clear about the nature of God in the New Testament. They're is some confusion in the Old Testament, but nothing like in the New.

There really is no confusion if you read the New Testament with a belief that the Father is the God of the Old Testament.

As soon as Jesus enter's the picture, the idea of God as 1 in every way imaginable become's cloudy, because of the language --written by Apostle's --used to talk about our Lord.

Not really, it is fairly clear in context.

1 obvious example is in calling Him "Lord."

And calling David "lord" as well?

Another conundrum is the Holy Spirit --is He the Father Himself, or is the Spirit distinct from the Father in some way?

If the Spirit is sent from the Father, is there any reason to believe the Spirit is the Father?

In any way, really; because if the Holy Spirit is in any way distinct from the Father then you have a problem to solve, while remaining monotheistic.

Where does scripture tell us to bow down before the Holy Spirit?

And the same goes for Jesuses' multiple statement's indicating that He and the Father are in some sense the same; even while they're clearly is distinction between Them also.

You mean the statements where Jesus is praying to the Father that His disciples will also be the same with the Father in the same sense that Jesus and the Father are the same?

Of course not, since the Trinity was either on the mind's of the Apostle's when writing there book's, or the Trinity was not; either way, no verse's should ever be found that were specifically designed to disparage the Trinity. It was either "a thing" (in which case the Trinity is the truth), or it wasn't; in which case the Trinity is a man-made invention; which is you're view.

No, my view is that there are more verses that contradict the Trinity than support it, therefore the Trinity should not be taught as if it is a required doctrine for Christians to believe.

This is a clear teaching from the scripture that must be believed by Christians:

John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

If you change this teaching to the Trinity, you get confusion.

Like this:

For the Trinity so loved the world, that the Trinity gave the Trinity's only begotten Trinity, that whosoever believeth in the Trinity should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For the Trinity sent not the Trinity' Trinity into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through the Trinity might be saved.
18 He that believeth on the Trinity is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Trinity of the Trinity.​

 

[Totton Linnet]

Christ is Jahweh God of the OT.


"...that Rock which followed them was Christ"

 

[Apple7]

You gave this verse as "proof" that Jesus raised Himself up from the dead, but the verse clearly states that Jesus was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father.

Romans 6:4 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.​

Jesus IS 'The Glory'.

Thus...He raised Himself...

You gave this verse as proof that Jesus was raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit, but the verse clearly says that it is the Spirit of Him (The Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead.

Romans 8:11 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.​

This IS 'The Holy Spirit'...just as it is in all of the other NT locations...

 

[keypurr]

You deceitfully dwell upon verses mentioning God The Father, to the exclusion of the others.

This is intellectual dishonesty.

Kinda like a politician who tells a half-truth so that he can't be accused of lying...

You just don't get it Apple7.

 

[StanJ]

Jesus IS 'The Glory'.
Thus...He raised Himself...

I disagree. The NT states God raised Jesus and it may seem to be a technicality, but I think it goes to the fact that God did not die when Jesus did. Only Jesus died and when He was resurrected God became resident in Him again.

 

[Apple7]

I disagree. The NT states God raised Jesus and it may seem to be a technicality, but I think it goes to the fact that God did not die when Jesus did. Only Jesus died and when He was resurrected God became resident in Him again.

As you can verify for yourself, The Trinity raised Jesus from the dead according to scripture.

 

[StanJ]

As you can verify for yourself, The Trinity raised Jesus from the dead according to scripture.

All I read is GOD raised Him, so if we are to go on the Triune nature of God, the Father raised the Son.

 

[oatmeal]

As you can verify for yourself, The Trinity raised Jesus from the dead according to scripture.

So then a three part god raised a one part god from the dead?

So that makes four gods

Interesting

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

All I read is GOD raised Him, so if we are to go on the Triune nature of God, the Father raised the Son.

Here's the way it is:
1) God the Father
2) God the Son
3) God the Holy Spirit

Yet, they are One.

That's the way we must accept it with our "finite minds."

 

[oatmeal]

Here's the way it is:
1) God the Father
2) God the Son
3) God the Holy Spirit

Yet, they are One.

That's the way we must accept it with our "finite minds."

Exodus 7:1 KJV

And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

and don't forget

4) God the Moses

and don't forget Psalm 82:6

I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

5) God the children of the most High.

How many children do you suppose the most High has?

 

[daqq]

This is a clear teaching from the scripture that must be believed by Christians:

John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

If you change this teaching to the Trinity, you get confusion.

Like this:

For the Trinity so loved the world, that the Trinity gave the Trinity's only begotten Trinity, that whosoever believeth in the Trinity should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For the Trinity sent not the Trinity' Trinity into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through the Trinity might be saved.
18 He that believeth on the Trinity is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Trinity of the Trinity.​

:thumb: Great post,

I wonder if there might be some other great places to "prove" the Trinity. I was thinking of Exodus 20:1-3 but I fear blaspheming so I will refrain from posting any such thing from Torah, however, that is essentially what Trinitarianism has done through its dogma. :shut:

 

[Cross Reference]

You don't know what I mean because you do not read your own NT. Read John 4:24. Jesus himself said that God is a Spirit. Spirits are incorporeal. If Jesus is in flesh, they can't be the same. So the Trinity is more than one and, as the name says, three.

What Dan and those like him, can't 'see' to understand is that Jesus, in His mortal flesh, did what no other human could ever do and his sinlessness was not an aid His doing it, i.e., to have a perfect relationship with the Father, Who is Spirit. Paul's life later proves this to be true limited only by his godless parental conception which I believe kept him short of transfiguration.

Jesus was . . . . "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15 (KJV)

Beginning here with Cain:

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." Genesis 4:7 (KJV)

Jesus always did well. Unlike Cain who had no allegiance to God, Jesus excelled by His allegiance, born of perfect LOVE He never spoiled!

In reality this was the scene with Paul as it was for Jesus with one exception:

Paul wrote: "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:23 (KJV)

The exception was because of His allegiance that sin never entered; His love to the Father result in perfect obedience:

Jesus never gave entrance to "law of the flesh" that He should have to overcome it..

Because of the cross and all it provided for, Paul could now say this when he 'saw' it:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:1-2 (KJV)

 

[Cross Reference]

I disagree. The NT states God raised Jesus and it may seem to be a technicality, but I think it goes to the fact that God did not die when Jesus did. Only Jesus died and when He was resurrected God became resident in Him again.

True but, the manifest presence of God was always in Jesus as being in complete union with His flesh. After the cross there was then no disimilarities between them.. Death had no hold on Jesus Christ, being the result.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

You don't know what I mean because you do not read your own NT. Read John 4:24. Jesus himself said that God is a Spirit. Spirits are incorporeal. If Jesus is in flesh, they can't be the same. So the Trinity is more than one and, as the name says, three.

Read this. What do you think about it?


DJ

1.0
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[Omniskeptical]

Here's the way it is:
1) God the Father
2) God the Son
3) God the Holy Spirit

Yet, they are One.

That's the way we must accept it with our "finite minds."

No, that is the way you must accept it, because you are an idolater and a snob.