Dinosaurs

The Barbarian

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To be fair, you have to remember the difference. Evolutionary theory is science, and therefore must have supporting evidence.

YE creationism is a religion, and therefore requires only faith.

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Jose Fly

New member
YE creationism is a religion, and therefore requires only faith.

Then that leads to an obvious issue. Why are the creationists trying to justify it via scientific data, and why are others here so eager to engage them in that context, when it's really just a religious belief?
 

6days

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YE creationism is a religion, and therefore requires only faith.
Actually, Both evolutionism and creationism are beliefs about the past. Both sides interpret evidence according to beliefs.

It is an exciting time to be a Christian as we see breakthroughs in science revealing the majesty of our Creator. It is an exciting time also as we see more and more scientists acknowledging that evolutionism does not provide satisfactory answers.

Jerry Coyne, well known evolutionist and science wtiter is concerned about 'the increasingly unmanageable problem of high-level academic defectors from evolutionary theory'
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress...ther-new-anti-evolution-book-by-thomas-nagel/

One of the " defecters" Coyne mentions is Thomas Nagel.
Nagel wrote:
I believe the defenders of intelligent design deserve our gratitude for challenging a scientific world view that owes some of the passion displayed by its adherents precisely to the fact that it is thought to liberate us from religion. That world view is ripe for displacement....

A funny line from Coyne is that the secular opposition to the ToE is coming from molecular biologists. He suggests they perhaps don't have a good enough education in evolution!
Perhaps these scientists have superior knowledge than Coyne does about life at the most elemental levels. Perhaps they understand the ToE is a house of cards about to tumble.
( watch for supernatural alternative explanations that exclude a Creator God....Aliens?)
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
To be fair, you have to remember the difference. Evolutionary theory is science, and therefore must have supporting evidence.

YE creationism is a religion, and therefore requires only faith.

Actually, Both evolutionism and creationism are beliefs about the past.

One of the common creationist dishonesties is equivocation on "belief." They would like you to accept that "believe" in these statements...

  • "Scientists, looking at the data, believe that feathers first appeared on dinosaurs, from which birds evolved."
  • "I believe in the Trinity, three persons in one God."
  • "I believe I'll have another Guinness."

...mean exactly the same thing.

"Evolutionism" is, as we've discovered earlier, a strawman that many creationists use to mislead.

This is another reason people conclude that YE creationists are dishonest. Not all of them are, and not all of them use such dishonest tactics. But too many of them do.

(quote-mining attempt deleted)

You'd be more effective if you'd learn something about science, and stopped cutting and pasting faked and/or edited "quotes" from other creationist websites.
 

The Barbarian

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Then that leads to an obvious issue. Why are the creationists trying to justify it via scientific data, and why are others here so eager to engage them in that context, when it's really just a religious belief?

Science envy, mostly. Science has been remarkably effective in learning about the physical universe, and helping us get along it it. Creationists would dearly like to find a way to get some of that prestige for their religion. As you might have noticed, most Christians don't worry about it, finding faith in God sufficient.

And, as you might have noticed, when creationists do make testable scientific claims, it's pretty easy to debunk them. So it's good for Christianity to keep foolish and spurious apologetics from deluding those who might otherwise come to Christ. (yeah, I know you don't believe; it's O.K. with me, because I'm Christian, and I know that atheism won't automatically send you to Hell)

We're trying to avoid what St. Augustine warned us about, long, long ago:

"In matters that are so obscure and far beyond our vision, we may find in Holy Scripture passages which can be interpreted in very different ways without prejudice to the faith we have received. In such cases, we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that, if further progress in the search for truth justly undermines this position, we too fall with it. We should not battle for our own interpretation but for the teaching of Holy Scripture. We should not wish to conform the meaning of Holy Scripture to our interpretation, but our interpretation to the meaning of Holy Scripture."

Putting a sharper point on it, he wrote:

"Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. Now it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics, and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn... If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe our books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren, ... to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call on Holy Scripture, .. although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. "
St. Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
I can't speak for the creationists or the YECs but I speak for the most sensible treatment of Genesis.

1, 1:1 is a section title; it is not action in the account.
2, 1:2 says that when God starting forming the earth into what we now have, it was 'formless and void.' We don't know exactly what that was, and we don't know how long. But it is the same theme that is found in many cosmologies. The creator God takes chaotic, dark, material and forms it into that which is habitable for mankind.
2A, I don't know other explanations for why the animal and plant worlds are as 'domestic' as they now are, but clearly they are. Many other cosmologies refer to an ancient world dominated by a huge lizard that was vanquished by the creator. Coincidence? I think not. Even a few Psalms and Job mention this.
2B, some other cosmologies refer to the creator simply speaking and things take their shape. The Suquamish (Chief Sealth, etc) in WA state, for example, speak of the Creator as 'the form-changer' or 'transformer.' In addition, the definition of evil is when the creatures use that power deceptively; it is taken away from them when they do.

3, the creative acts of God reverse 'formless and void.' Again, I think this is local reference. The heavens seem to have been just fine, but earth was a mess. It needed both forming and filling. We know earth's functions need the celestial mechanical input of its solar system, and it appears that God spoke this into existence as we now know it.

4, the presuppositions of Genesis 1 are completely different from naturalistic uniformitarianism, so there is no point in comparing computers to bubble gum. We must come to terms with the literature's presuppositions instead of blocking it out because of ours.

(have a laugh: a US columnist was visiting Bucharest and was surprised that a local would try to teach its dog to obey in Hungarian. Didn't the fellow know that he should use English? Then he realized the obvious. So it is with presuppositions. "English" is not the only language out there.)

4A, therefore it is more accurate to say that a belief in the creator is partly religious. It is not "just religious." There are compelling facts to deal with. The astrophysicists Gonzales and ____ who did the doc THE PRIVILEGED PLANET have their 20 or so physical phenomena that is 'Goldilocks' for humans. Coincidence? Really? Have you ever done the math on the probability that all 20 or so would 'happen' coherently and harmoniously?

You can read Gen 1-11 a hundred times, and you will never get impression that Moses is trying to escape fact. You get the opposite. He is integrating what he knows of a Creator beyond the visible with as many visible, demonstrable facts he can. There may be a thing or two for which he has no or poor vocabulary, but you're not dealing with a person who is on drugs or given to fantasy. As the filmmaker Hitchcock would say, 'What do you mean a book of fantasy? The Bible has evil, murder, treachery on nearly every page.'

This is why, for ex., the creation account matches (answers) 'formless and void.' It is meant very deliberately, and zones that are formed are filled with living creatures in expected sequence. It is not like the last scene in Antonioni's BLOW UP where people are playing tennis without a ball. It is coherent, reality-based. (I happen to think that 6day is mistaken here about the sun on the 1st day. Either the days were longer, or the literary day was much longer, or enough light was provided without a sun and moon, but I can't come down where he does about morning and evening until day 4).

Look at 2:10+. We have just read of the tree of knowledge and are puzzled. But now the same person is telling us the location of this spot, and there are 4 headwaters. They have features. They have names current to Moses' time (and have lasted to our time) so a person can go see for themselves that there was a real space and time he was writing about. These are not throw-away features. They matter to Genesis' credibility, because ch 1 does sound poetic. It is when the poetry of ch 1 and the tangible detail of ch 2 are merged that we know we what kind of person we have writing. THE BATTLE HYMN OF THE MARINES is poetic but anyone can look up the shores of Tripoli when it was part of an Islamic caliphate, and see what happened.

Then there is nudity. Today there is some degree of embarrassment or ashamedness about it, which is a natural instinct. The person who is deliberately secular or agnostic does over the top things to deny this. (Note recently the feminist top-free day in Toronto titled NUDITY IS NOT SEXUAL. Total nonsense.) So when Gen 2:25 says there was no shame between the man and the woman, we know we have a situation before the earth was defiled by evil, and that this was radically altered by evil. A husband and wife can enjoy nudity, but it has horrible results outside of marriage.

A physician in Gaskell's novel MIDDLEMARCH, set in the 1800s, was attending to a birth. The husband was a new botanist enamored with Darwin, Mendel, etc. The husband was going on and on about how the plants or birds or butterflies had so many chances and years and generations to adapt into new forms. After the delivery, the doctor cut him off. "So many chances? You had better not ever try to help with a birth!"
 

Jose Fly

New member
Actually, Both evolutionism and creationism are beliefs about the past.

If your position is that creationism is a belief, then why do you keep trying to validate it through appeals to science?

Jerry Coyne, well known evolutionist and science wtiter is concerned about 'the increasingly unmanageable problem of high-level academic defectors from evolutionary theory'

That quote is nowhere in that blog post.

And aren't you once again trying to have it both ways? When we science advocates cite the overwhelming support and use of evolutionary theory among the world's life scientists, you creationists wave it away as "appeals to popularity". Yet here you are essentially trying to appeal to the same thing.

Why is it ok for you to do it but not anyone else?

One of the " defecters" Coyne mentions is Thomas Nagel.

You know Nagel is a philosopher, not a scientist, right?
 

Jose Fly

New member
Science envy, mostly. Science has been remarkably effective in learning about the physical universe, and helping us get along it it. Creationists would dearly like to find a way to get some of that prestige for their religion. As you might have noticed, most Christians don't worry about it, finding faith in God sufficient.

Very true. In the western world, science has become our primary means of establishing reality. Oftentimes when an issue comes up the call is to "wait until the science is clear". Advertising regularly plays on this as well ("clinically proven", "9 out of 10 doctors agree").

Religion OTOH? Meh. Oh sure, back in the day (a century or so ago) proclamations from religious authorities and Biblical quotes carried public weight, but no longer. Now such things are only meaningful to the adherents to each specific faith.

So, as you note, creationists realize that they can no longer merely say "The Bible says..." and have it be compelling to the general public. They know that to be credible, they have to appeal to science.

IOW, creationists have ceded authority over reality to science.

And, as you might have noticed, when creationists do make testable scientific claims, it's pretty easy to debunk them. So it's good for Christianity to keep foolish and spurious apologetics from deluding those who might otherwise come to Christ. (yeah, I know you don't believe; it's O.K. with me, because I'm Christian, and I know that atheism won't automatically send you to Hell)

Oh sure, I appreciate what you try and do to protect your faith from such embarrassment.

We're trying to avoid what St. Augustine warned us about, long, long ago

I always liked those statements. Good advice.
 

Stripe

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If your position is that creationism is a belief, then why do you keep trying to validate it through appeals to science?

That's what scientists do: They examine ideas, trying to falsify them. Evolutionists prefer to use doctrine to demand that their ideas never be tested.
 

Stripe

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Except creationism isn't falsifiable. It isn't even testable.

If you disagree, then provide a means by which God can be tested.

Are you determined to spout irrational nonsense everywhere you go?

What idea are you describing as not testable? Creationism or God?

And we don't hold up worldviews as things to test; we give specific, physical conditions that overthrow your precious evolutionism and uphold the Biblical account.
 

Jose Fly

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You're not making sense.

When I questioned why you creationists were trying to validate creationism--a religious belief--via science, you answered, "That's what scientists do: They examine ideas, trying to falsify them."

Did you mean that as an answer to my question? Were you saying that the reason you try and validate creationism via science is because you are examining/testing it and trying to falsify it?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Except creationism isn't falsifiable. It isn't even testable.

If you disagree, then provide a means by which God can be tested.


Not testable, hmmm.

Everyday, we walk around in a world with improbability numbers so high the zeros stretch across the solar system, yet everything works and we are alive and breathing. It it ain't broke, don't fix it. Sounds like it tests just fine.

It started from an earth that was 'formless and void' and was formed and filled. The atmosphere was changed at the flood, and mankind's lifespan reduced but is still at a predictable range in which all the parts and phases of human life can be enjoyed satisfactorily.

Let's not be clinical or cerebral for no reason.
 

Stripe

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You're not making sense.
Of course I am.

You're just determined to be as ungracious as possible.

When I questioned why you creationists were trying to validate creationism--a religious belief--via science, you answered, "That's what scientists do: They examine ideas, trying to falsify them."
That's right. We have a worldview and we validate that worldview by examining the evidence.

Did you mean that as an answer to my question? Were you saying that the reason you try and validate creationism via science is because you are examining/testing it and trying to falsify it?
Nope. You can't put a worldview under a microscope. To do science, you need to drop the idea that your religion — evolutionism, in your case — is evidence. You need to make predictions and test them.
 

Jose Fly

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Me: Were you saying that the reason you try and validate creationism via science is because you are examining/testing it and trying to falsify it?

Stripe: Nope.

Thanks for clarifying.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Does anyone remember the Henry Miller experiment featured in LIFE magazine in the 50s? This was not the novelist, he was a biologist. He believed he had all the ingredients in a tube at the beginning and that they would create life. A test. It did not. Notice what happens next: the wrong materials and conditions were tested.

My point is that a leap in intelligence was needed. Since we can't "really" go back there, the most intelligent approach to doing such a test would not be to try one at all. That would be the most honest. There are other approaches, something like the passing along of wisdom and technique about birthing. Check all the cosmologies for patterns. Look at the world around us, and see what actually works, century in, century out. There are so many reasons why it shouldn't work!

There is no point in being too cerebral or clinical for no reason.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Does anyone remember the Henry Miller experiment featured in LIFE magazine in the 50s?

Yep.

He believed he had all the ingredients in a tube at the beginning and that they would create life.

No. The intent was to see if it would yield some of the building blocks of life.

Notice what happens next: the wrong materials and conditions were tested.

You do realize that origins research has progressed quite a bit since the 1950's, right? It's amazing how creationists are still trying to argue against science as it was over half a century ago.

My point is that a leap in intelligence was needed. Since we can't "really" go back there, the most intelligent approach to doing such a test would not be to try one at all.

There ya' have it. The creationist approach to origins research: Don't do it. :chuckle:
 

Stripe

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= "I don't want to talk about this any more".

Nope. It's a simple case of you refusing to represent honestly what I clearly outlined. I said: A worldview cannot be placed under a microscope. You pretended I had said something else.
 
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