Dinosaurs

[6days]

Since you now seem very keen on evidence, please show us the evidence that a genetic load of mutations did not exist in the human population a few thousand years ago.

Or perhaps withdraw your claim if you can't.

Stuart

Good question Stuu. But as you know, we didn't have geneticists studying our genome 6,000 years ago. What we do have though is God's Word, in addition to current research. We know that mutations accumulate in our genome and genetic disorders increase. Geneticists often make remarks such as ...
"It seems clear that for the past few centuries harmful mutationshave been accumulating...the decrease in viability from mutation accumulation is some 1-2% per generation"
Crow in PNAS

or
"the total number of new mutations per diploid human genome per generation is about 100...at least 10% of these are deleterious...Analysis of human variability suggests a normal person carries thousands of deleterious alleles"
Kondrashov in 'Human Mutation'

 

[6days]

Will you die a physical death? If so, how did Jesus defeat physical death?

Jesus defeated physical death with the resurrection, in which we have faith, that we too will be resurrected.

Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,

1 Cor. 15:26
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Heb. 2:14
He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

 

[Stuu]

Good question Stuu. But as you know, we didn't have geneticists studying our genome 6,000 years ago. What we do have though is God's Word, in addition to current research. We know that mutations accumulate in our genome and genetic disorders increase. Geneticists often make remarks such as ...
"It seems clear that for the past few centuries harmful mutationshave been accumulating...the decrease in viability from mutation accumulation is some 1-2% per generation"
Crow in PNAS

or
"the total number of new mutations per diploid human genome per generation is about 100...at least 10% of these are deleterious...Analysis of human variability suggests a normal person carries thousands of deleterious alleles"
Kondrashov in 'Human Mutation'

We do have scientists studying our genomes from 6000 years ago.

What do you think the results say?

Stuart

 

[6days]

We do have scientists studying our genomes from 6000 years ago.
What do you think the results say?
Stuart

Geneticists who study our genome refer to it with terms such as 'the population bomb' because our genome is decaying... exactly as we expect from God's Word.

 

[User Name]

The key is oxygen toxicity

insect size is limited by how much oxygen they can take in. 300 million years ago Earth's atmosphere was 35% oxygen, today we have 20% oxygen in the atmosphere. The massive increase in oxygen levels meant that insects could grow to incredible size so you get dragonflies with a 3 foot wingspan and spiders the size of dogs and centipedes the size of small cars.

Mammals, reptiles and birds can't handle that much oxygen. While we could briefly survive in the earth's atmosphere on 300 million years ago the oxygen poisoning would render us blind in a few minutes and kill us in a couple hours.

Did a YEC answer this yet?

 

[6days]

Did a YEC answer this yet?

http://creation.com/oxygen-bigger-bugs

 

[Yorzhik]

Did a YEC answer this yet?

Not yet. I'm looking into it occasionally but data is very sparse. This is a good point brought up by common decentists.

 

[Interplanner]

Will you die a physical death? If so, how did Jesus defeat physical death?

[sorry this was about the things 6days said before these questions]

Most evolutionists wish to give evolution credit for animal camouflage developing. I guess the earliest wrong-colored animals were just unlucky, but anyway, I don't know what 6days means about evolution being harmful. Individual weaknesses die out and the strong survive, but 6days sounds like that is preventable harm.

Sounds like a misquote to me.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Jesus defeated physical death with the resurrection, in which we have faith, that we too will be resurrected.

Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,

1 Cor. 15:26
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Heb. 2:14
He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

I see. Jesus defeated physical death by not preventing you from dying, but by promising to raise you from the dead. That is not exactly what most people think of when they hear that somebody defeated physical death. They tend to think that they will not die.

The point being, Jesus did something but not in exactly the way that words plainly say. So to with creation. God created. God created in an order. But God it a bit differently than what the words plainly say.

 

[Jonahdog]

Good question Stuu. But as you know, we didn't have geneticists studying our genome 6,000 years ago. What we do have though is God's Word, in addition to current research. We know that mutations accumulate in our genome and genetic disorders increase. Geneticists often make remarks such as ...
"It seems clear that for the past few centuries harmful mutationshave been accumulating...the decrease in viability from mutation accumulation is some 1-2% per generation"
Crow in PNAS

or
"the total number of new mutations per diploid human genome per generation is about 100...at least 10% of these are deleterious...Analysis of human variability suggests a normal person carries thousands of deleterious alleles"
Kondrashov in 'Human Mutation'

Can you give us real citations to what you quoted, please.

 

[Interplanner]

I see. Jesus defeated physical death by not preventing you from dying, but by promising to raise you from the dead. That is not exactly what most people think of when they hear that somebody defeated physical death. They tend to think that they will not die.

The point being, Jesus did something but not in exactly the way that words plainly say. So to with creation. God created. God created in an order. But God it a bit differently than what the words plainly say.

But it "has been turned backward" --Lewis, through his resurrection. There is now life, light and fellowship with God through Christ. That cannot be lost even through physical death, which most of us will encounter. It is far more hideous if death is final.

 

[Interplanner]

Will you die a physical death? If so, how did Jesus defeat physical death?

Even in the Genesis text, it was not about physical death, because they did not die bodily by eating the forbidden thing. As though it was poison. They invited in hopelessness and misery.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Even in the Genesis text, it was not about physical death, because they did not die bodily by eating the forbidden thing. As though it was poison. They invited in hopelessness and misery.

Exactly!

 

[6days]

Since you now seem very keen on evidence, please show us the evidence that a genetic load of mutations did not exist in the human population a few thousand years ago.
Or perhaps withdraw your claim if you can't.

StuartGood question Stuu. But as you know, we didn't have geneticists studying our genome 6,000 years ago. What we do have though is God's Word, in addition to current research. We know that mutations accumulate in our genome and genetic disorders increase. Geneticists often make remarks such as ...

"It seems clear that for the past few centuries harmful mutationshave been accumulating...the decrease in viability from mutation accumulation is some 1-2% per generation"
Crow in PNAS

or
"the total number of new mutations per diploid human genome per generation is about 100...at least 10% of these are deleterious...Analysis of human variability suggests a normal person carries thousands of deleterious alleles"
Kondrashov in 'Human Mutation'

Can you give us real citations to what you quoted, please.

*

Sure 1st quote

J.F.Crow 1997 ' The high spontaneous mutation rate: is it a health risk?' PNAS 94:8380-8386


Also in that article Crow says, " the overall impact of the mutation process must be deleterious.. the typical mutation is very mild. It usually has no overt effect that shows up as a small decrease in viability or fertility"


Further on in the article..." natural selection does not line up individuals and remove all those with more than a certain number of mutations... the unreality of this model keep me for many years from considering this as a way in which the population deals with a high mutation rate" . Crow is an evolutionist...he recognizes the problem and proposes a solution of "quasi- truncation selection".


Again further on Crow says " I do regard mutation accumulation as a problem. It is something like the Population Bomb, but with a much longer fuse".


2nd quote

S.Kondrashov 2002. Direct estimates of human per nucleotide mutation rates at 20 loci causing Mendelian diseases. Human Mutation 21:12-27


Since that time, and partly because of the encode results, Kondrashov has said that the deleterious rate could be as high as 30%... and that there could be as many as 300 mutations per diploid human genome per generation.

Again...Kondrashov is an evolutionist and recognizes the problem but tries to dismiss it suggesting "synergistic epistasis" and " truncation selection" to save his evolutionary belief system.

 

[6days]

Even in the Genesis text, it was not about physical death, because they did not die bodily by eating the forbidden thing. As though it was poison. They invited in hopelessness and misery.

Your belief system borders on heresy suggesting that Christ did not need to defeat physical death...only spiritual death. Your belief system leads to the type of heresy preached by some of the writers for heretical 'Biologos'.

 

[Stuu]

Geneticists who study our genome refer to it with terms such as 'the population bomb' because our genome is decaying... exactly as we expect from God's Word.

If you are going to claim that genetic mutation load didn't exist 6000 years ago then you need some data that shows that. Otherwise your claim is easily dismissed.

For example, DNA has been extracted from the tooth of Cheddar Man, who lived one thousand years before the creation of the universe. What do you think his DNA shows about genetic mutation load? Do you have any references for us?

Stuart

 

[6days]

If you are going to claim that genetic mutation load didn't exist 6000 years ago then you need some data that shows that. Otherwise your claim is easily dismissed.
For example, DNA has been extracted from the tooth of Cheddar Man, who lived one thousand years before the creation of the universe. What do you think his DNA shows about genetic mutation load? Do you have any references for us?

Stuart

Yes, I am claiming that genetic burden did not exist before sin entered the world. Science confirms that our genome is crumbling, not improving.
Re. Cheddar Man.... yes please ...what does his DNA show about genetic load?
Perhaps what we can learn from Cheddar Man is that there is something wrong with evutionary dating. IF DNA has a half life of 521 years under ideal conditions.... how much DNA was sequenced?

 

[George Affleck]

The key is oxygen toxicity

insect size is limited by how much oxygen they can take in. 300 million years ago Earth's atmosphere was 35% oxygen, today we have 20% oxygen in the atmosphere. The massive increase in oxygen levels meant that insects could grow to incredible size so you get dragonflies with a 3 foot wingspan and spiders the size of dogs and centipedes the size of small cars.

Mammals, reptiles and birds can't handle that much oxygen. While we could briefly survive in the earth's atmosphere on 300 million years ago the oxygen poisoning would render us blind in a few minutes and kill us in a couple hours.

The simple answer to this question is found in the question itself. Of course "we" and "us" could not live out of our conditioned element. But "they" could and did.

Have you ever heard of high altitude adaptation in humans? Otherwise known as the "Sherpa Phenomenon". They get along fine on 40% less oxygen than we require. Of course evolutionists claim this is just "fast evolution". We call it adaptation.

How about freediving? Bajau fishermen routinely dive to 65 ft. and do not take a breath for up to 5 minutes. More evolving?

"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made..."

Please understand that creationists accept adaptation as a reality - just at a much quicker pace.

For example; at the beginning, all water was fresh - no salinity. Yet there are fish who live in salt water which now can't survive in fresh water.

The fact that there are certain fish who can live in both? Proof that 'transitional forms' are not always fossils or missing links.

Was an increased oxygen level toxic to Adam? No. In fact, he was, in all probability, so robust in every way that he required it. Subsequent generations have gathered genetic faults as inherent sin takes its persistent and incurable toll but human adaptability is still remarkable as seen with the Sherpas and Bajau fishermen.

 

[Stuu]

Yes, I am claiming that genetic burden did not exist before sin entered the world. Science confirms that our genome is crumbling, not improving.
Re. Cheddar Man.... yes please ...what does his DNA show about genetic load?
Perhaps what we can learn from Cheddar Man is that there is something wrong with evutionary dating. IF DNA has a half life of 521 years under ideal conditions.... how much DNA was sequenced?

You're the one telling the freaky tales. You provide the evidence.

Stuart

 

[Stuu]

The simple answer to this question is found in the question itself. Of course "we" and "us" could not live out of our conditioned element. But "they" could and did.

Have you ever heard of high altitude adaptation in humans? Otherwise known as the "Sherpa Phenomenon". They get along fine on 40% less oxygen than we require. Of course evolutionists claim this is just "fast evolution". We call it adaptation.

How about freediving? Bajau fishermen routinely dive to 65 ft. and do not take a breath for up to 5 minutes. More evolving?

"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made..."

Please understand that creationists accept adaptation as a reality - just at a much quicker pace.

For example; at the beginning, all water was fresh - no salinity. Yet there are fish who live in salt water which now can't survive in fresh water.

The fact that there are certain fish who can live in both? Proof that 'transitional forms' are not always fossils or missing links.

Was an increased oxygen level toxic to Adam? No. In fact, he was, in all probability, so robust in every way that he required it. Subsequent generations have gathered genetic faults as inherent sin takes its persistent and incurable toll but human adaptability is still remarkable as seen with the Sherpas and Bajau fishermen.

What a load of complete drivel. Do you religious zealots know nothing about human anatomy and physiology? You obviously choose to lie about evolution by natural selection. Does your god require you to carry on like this??

Stuart