Dinosaurs

Yorzhik

Well-known member
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It belongs with the question of the 'canopy' atmosphere before the flood. Gen 1 mentions a suspension of water above the earth, separate from ocean, and the collapse of it during the flood. As I recall, scientists who were Christians were writing articles 40 years ago about this, saying that the collapse of such a canopy explained the amount of water of the flood. The conditions under it would have been like a greenhouse...etc. There are tropical plant remains under the Sahara, and mammoths were trapped suddenly in Siberia in places that could not possibly support them in current conditions.
OK. But I was hoping for people that believe in common decent to support the assertion that large insects and man could not live in the same conditions. I'm finding a little bit of information on this, but not much. Where is this assertion coming from?
 

Alate_One

Well-known member
yep, didnt feel the ground shake.


I realize also if Jesus told you Himself the world was created and evolution was a lie, you would think it didn't disprove evolution.
The world *is* created and still being created . . . through evolution.

It is also possible that God created the earth to look exactly as if evolution occurred.

I am willing to change my position if there were data or a literal revelation from God. As it is though, the evidence tells me God creates through evolution.
 

6days

New member
Alate_One said:
The world *is* created and still being created . . . through evolution.

That's not what God's Word tells us.

Ex. 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Alate_One said:
It is also possible that God created the earth to look exactly as if evolution occurred.

God tells us... "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them,"

Alate_One said:
I am willing to change my position if there were data or a literal revelation from God. As it is though, the evidence tells me God creates through evolution.

God did give you revelation... His Words which you reject.

God does not create through a process of death and suffering. His Word tells us that death is the enemy... not a creative process.

You also reject the data... rather you only accept interpretations of the data which reject scripture.

The data tells us 'evolution is impossible' according to geneticist John Sanford. ( and many other scientists who accept the truth of scripture)
 

Angel4Truth

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Hall of Fame
I am willing to change my position if there were data or a literal revelation from God. As it is though, the evidence tells me God creates through evolution.
Since you dont believe Genesis, heres another revelation for you:

Exodus 20:11

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
 

TracerBullet

New member
It belongs with the question of the 'canopy' atmosphere before the flood. Gen 1 mentions a suspension of water above the earth, separate from ocean, and the collapse of it during the flood. As I recall, scientists who were Christians were writing articles 40 years ago about this, saying that the collapse of such a canopy explained the amount of water of the flood. The conditions under it would have been like a greenhouse...etc. There are tropical plant remains under the Sahara, and mammoths were trapped suddenly in Siberia in places that could not possibly support them in current conditions.

The vapor canopy is one of the sillier claims of creationists. A canopy even the fraction of the size needed to produce the water necessary to flood the entire earth would heat the surface of the earth by several hundred degrees.
 

TracerBullet

New member
OK. But I was hoping for people that believe in common decent to support the assertion that large insects and man could not live in the same conditions. I'm finding a little bit of information on this, but not much. Where is this assertion coming from?

The key is oxygen toxicity

insect size is limited by how much oxygen they can take in. 300 million years ago Earth's atmosphere was 35% oxygen, today we have 20% oxygen in the atmosphere. The massive increase in oxygen levels meant that insects could grow to incredible size so you get dragonflies with a 3 foot wingspan and spiders the size of dogs and centipedes the size of small cars.

Mammals, reptiles and birds can't handle that much oxygen. While we could briefly survive in the earth's atmosphere on 300 million years ago the oxygen poisoning would render us blind in a few minutes and kill us in a couple hours.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Crocodiles EAT people on a regular basis and they can leap high into the air.
So now you're betting on croc for leviathan?

:darwinsm:

The crocodiles that can't jump into the air may be eliminated by natural selection. The highest jumping crocodiles will evolve feathers in the geological blink of an eye. Who woulda thunk...flying crock!
:rotfl:
Why do so many of you have such insistence these passages must refer to dinosaurs? You do realize that even if they were some kind of remnant population of dinosaurs, it wouldn't disprove evolution.
Why do so many of you have such insistence these passages must not refer to dinos? You do realize that even if they were some kind of remnant population of dinosaurs, it wouldn't disprove evolution, right?

It is also possible that God created the earth to look exactly as if evolution occurred.
No, it's not.

I am willing to change my position.
Great! The Bible says the world was created in six days.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
But the real world evidence says otherwise.



Read the text closely. Gen 1 does not say everything took place in 6 days, only the forming of it to what we now have. The length of time that it was a 'formless and void' watery planet could be very long and/or could imply a very long lead-up.
 

Yorzhik

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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The key is oxygen toxicity

insect size is limited by how much oxygen they can take in. 300 million years ago Earth's atmosphere was 35% oxygen, today we have 20% oxygen in the atmosphere. The massive increase in oxygen levels meant that insects could grow to incredible size so you get dragonflies with a 3 foot wingspan and spiders the size of dogs and centipedes the size of small cars.

Mammals, reptiles and birds can't handle that much oxygen. While we could briefly survive in the earth's atmosphere on 300 million years ago the oxygen poisoning would render us blind in a few minutes and kill us in a couple hours.
Wow, TracerBullet, this is the first post I've ever seen from you that is a good post. You make a good point, and this is something I'll have to look into more.
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
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It belongs with the question of the 'canopy' atmosphere before the flood. Gen 1 mentions a suspension of water above the earth

Not quite. The suspended water is in the crust. Hence, fountains of the great deep.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Yes... read Job
I am asking for pictures or other evidence from the fossil record. Scripture mentions lions and sheep and wolves and horses and you can find me an example of each of those animals thus the real world is in line with what scripture says. Therefore, you should be able to find is an example of the leviathan as described in Job.
 

6days

New member
I am asking for pictures or other evidence from the fossil record. Scripture mentions lions and sheep and wolves and horses and you can find me an example of each of those animals thus the real world is in line with what scripture says. Therefore, you should be able to find is an example of the leviathan as described in Job.
As with behemoth, we don't know exactly which creature is being described, but it does seem like a dinosaur. *With Leviathon, again we don't know which creature is being described but here arw some suggestions.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=184


http://creation.mobi/leviathan-real-or-symbolic


https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/types/meet-leviathan/
 

CabinetMaker

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As with behemoth, we don't know exactly which creature is being described, but it does seem like a dinosaur. *With Leviathon, again we don't know which creature is being described but here arw some suggestions.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=184


http://creation.mobi/leviathan-real-or-symbolic


https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/types/meet-leviathan/
Better take a look at Job's description again:

Job 41
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor[b]?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.

17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils

as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone
.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”


I highlighted a few of the characteristics that mark this creature as truly unique and should make it stand out as a living creature or in the fossil record.
 

6days

New member
Better take a look at Job's description again:

Job 41
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor[b]?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.

17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils

as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone
.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.

31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”


I highlighted a few of the characteristics that mark this creature as truly unique and should make it stand out as a living creature or in the fossil record.
Very good!
As I said, we don't know exactly which creature is being described, but I did give some links which list several possibilities
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Very good!
As I said, we don't know exactly which creature is being described, but I did give some links which list several possibilities

Cabinethead seems to think an absence of evidence that he has demanded proves something. :chuckle:
 
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CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Very good!
As I said, we don't know exactly which creature is being described, but I did give some links which list several possibilities
None of those possibilities breathed fire or had interlocking armor on their back that were so tight even air could not get through thus, they fail to meet the description that Job provided. We have a significant amount dinosaur fossils yet nothing in those fossils even remotely resembles what Job described. A few folks have thrown up a few dinosaurs they feel might be a behemoth but nobody can produce anything that even remotely resembles what is, for lack of a better term, a fire breathing dragon. That is a problem for you.
 
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