Did Paul Follow God's Law as a Believer?

[patrick jane]

Paul could never be saved as long as he served two masters: God in his mind and sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25; Mat. 6:24)

The Lord would never grant His Righteousness to an outlaw.

The gospel of Jesus was the gospel of righteousness aka the Law. The Law and the Prophets as we have in Mat. 5:17-19.

Talk to saint john w the great and humble

 

[glorydaz]

Indeed, Paul considered himself a wretched man because he found out with the Law that the way he used to live was sinful.

They way he used to live, under the law as a Pharisee, was outward obedience to the law. The law had no effect on the inner man....no effect on the heart. It left him powerless to do what he wanted to do.

He wanted to quit but he found impossible as he had grown up a Hellenist where to live the way he used to was sinful but, he had become used to and could not stop. The life of a Hellenist was completely amoral. Not according to the laws among the Jews. Now, as a Jew with knowledge of the Law, Paul wanted to change and he could not. Hence, he considered himself a wretched man. That's all in Rom. 7:8-25.

No, as he already explained in Romans 6. It is only by the obedience of faith....not attempting to obey the law, that man is made free .....no longer wretched but servants of righteousness. Sin has no more dominion over those who have been created in Christ Jesus. Paul was a new creature. There are no wretched men in Christ.

Romans 6:17-18
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.​

 

[Ben Masada]

They way he used to live, under the law as a Pharisee, was outward obedience to the law. The law had no effect on the inner man....no effect on the heart. It left him powerless to do what he wanted to do.

Paul never lived as a Pharisee. The Sect of the Pharisees was consecrated in terms that it could not adopt a Hellenist Jew. There were a few requirements for a Jew to join the Sect and, one of them was separation from Hellenism. Other Jews could work for them but not as a Pharisee. So, the way Paul used to live was of an amoral life just according to popular Hellenism. When Paul found out from reading Torah that he could not fix himself, he concluded that there was no other way out but serve God in his mind only and sin in his flesh. Hence, he served two masters: God in his mind and sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25)

 

[Ben Masada]

This is a reference to people who opposed Paul's message, as "thorn in the flesh" was a common figure of speech at the time, akin to today's "a pain in the neck."

"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell." Numbers 33:55 KJV

Notice "those."

"Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." Joshua 23:13 KJV

Notice "they."

"Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you." Judges 2:3 KJV

Notice "they."

Survey this great book.

Okay, the thorn in Paul's side was his endless struggle against homo-sexual feelings. He was a Hellenist Jew and, for all Hellenist men, homosexuality was not considered a way of life against morality. If you see that last movie about Alexander, it was absolutely as normal to live with a woman for procreation as was with a man for sexual enjoyment. It was forbidden to show in Israel but some succeeded to get through with some of the videos.

 

[Ben Masada]

Actually, he could not have been forgiven in that world (when the Lord walked the earth) neither in the world to come as he was a blasphemer against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32 KJV). That is, unless God was going to use him first, as a pattern to them which should thereafter ("hereafter") believe on Him to life everlasting and that's exactly what we see (1 Timothy 1:16 KJV)! We are not in the time past or ages to come, but the "but now" where the righteousness of God without the law is manifested (Romans 3:21 KJV), even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:22 KJV)! This is how Paul can say:

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

There is no righteousness without the Law. The claim that Jesus was the end of the Law, was tantamount to slandering him with contradictions of himself if you read Mat. 5:17-19.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul never lived as a Pharisee. The Sect of the Pharisees was consecrated in terms that it could not adopt a Hellenist Jew. There were a few requirements for a Jew to join the Sect and, one of them was separation from Hellenism. Other Jews could work for them but not as a Pharisee. So, the way Paul used to live was of an amoral life just according to popular Hellenism. When Paul found out from reading Torah that he could not fix himself, he concluded that there was no other way out but serve God in his mind only and sin in his flesh. Hence, he served two masters: God in his mind and sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25)

You've been reading the wrong books. I'll believe what Paul says, but I do understand why you're so eager to discredit him. You're forced into doing so because of your misunderstanding of Romans 7. Were you to get what Paul is saying about the law, you'd have no ground to stand on.

Phil. 3:3-6
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.​

 

[glorydaz]

Okay, the thorn in Paul's side was his endless struggle against homo-sexual feelings. He was a Hellenist Jew and, for all Hellenist men, homosexuality was not considered a way of life against morality. If you see that last movie about Alexander, it was absolutely as normal to live with a woman for procreation as was with a man for sexual enjoyment. It was forbidden to show in Israel but some succeeded to get through with some of the videos.

Nonsense. Paul's thorn in the flesh was the Judaizers.....the enemies of the gospel who were out to kill Paul and deter him from preaching what the RISEN LORD had revealed to him.

 

[LoneStar]

There is no righteousness without the Law. The claim that Jesus was the end of the Law, was tantamount to slandering him with contradictions of himself if you read Mat. 5:17-19.

Sure there is.

Romans 3:21 KJV
(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;


Romans 10:3-4 KJV
(3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
(4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[LoneStar]

Okay, the thorn in Paul's side was his endless struggle against homo-sexual feelings.

:kookoo:

 

[glorydaz]

There is no righteousness without the Law.

Are you saying the law makes men righteous?

 

[Danoh]

Paul is explaining the condition of ALL MEN after the fall and after the law came, in comparison to what came after. Sin is not just a verb, it's a noun also. It's a principality that cannot be overcome through the law alone, which is why the Spirit was poured out.

What he is saying is, that since he acquired the Spirit, he has become aware of this struggle within himself with this principality, and THAT IS the thorn in his flesh. He could not get it removed, because he was a man born out of season, privy to revelation * that was not to be fulfilled during his time in a physical body (*the redemption of the body Romans 8 speaks of).

Just as the blood only covered over sins until Yom Kippur came and removed them, so we in HaShem's timeline are waiting for the spiritual fulfillment of such. What you cannot perceive without His Spirit, is that everything that He gave our people is being spiritually fulfilled since then, according to His timeline. Peace

Not that I wholeheartedly agree with every aspect of your above understanding, but nevertheless, I often find myself learning something to reflect on from and about these things from the Messianic perspective you have just laid the above out from.

As a result of other passages in Acts through Philemon, I hold that the thorn in Paul's flesh was the many persecutions he'd had to suffer from his countrymen.

At the same time, how you described the abundance of revelations caused me to reflect a bit more on their place in what Paul is relating not only 2 Corinthians 12's account but also, other pieces of it all in other passages of Scripture.

As he relates elsewhere, said revelations had kept him focused on his sense of mission no matter what persecutions he'd end up having to endure.

Even where he was when those revelations took place ended up serving the purpose the Lord had related elsewhere they were to serve.

Add to that that it is indeed a powerful motive for continuing foward despite great obstacles when one has in their possession information they have committed not to speak come what may.

And those words of his at the end of it all - words those revelations had empowered him to be able to utter one day - "I have kept the faith."

How had he been able to? In the Lord's "My grace is sufficient for thee; for my strength is made perfect in weakness."

So, thank you for your post despite our obvious differences in understandings, it resulted in cause for further reflection on these things in ways I'd not pondered on til your post.

 

[Ben Masada]

I like to think of Jesus saving me from the law. So I don't really think the law could save me anyways, it always told me i was bad!

And I like to think in being saved through repentance and obedience of God's Law. BTW, any kind of law; either the law of cause & effect, the law of the land, or the law of the Most High. It is guaranteed, I tell you. If we all obey those laws, we are saved of all kinds of troubles. As an example of each law, the law of cause & effect for instance. There is a warning that cigarette smoking can cause cancer and many disregard the warning and even increase the consumption of cigarette smoking. If one gets pulmonary cancer, he has only himself to blame for.

Regarding the law of the land, we are demanded to obey any law even if the incident does not constitute a law in our country. If we break that law we might involve even our own country in the disputes.

The Law of the Almighty follows the same pattern. We break it, we become liable to punishment, even if executed by human judges. According to this Law, no one can take the place of the criminal. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20) Only the sinner will respond for his or her own sin. Bottom line, faith won't help without obedience.