Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?
- Thread starter beloved57
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So how about you explain how justice can't be served without an eternal "hell"?
Otherwise, it's just the usual.
lain:
Already did that.
Arthur Brain
Well-known member
Hardly but as you were.
English translations, paraphrased versions, etc, of the Sacred Scriptures are (1) not inspired & (2) not the Scriptures.
Secondly i have never denied what the Sacred Scriptures say.
Thirdly, if by "Bible" you mean the inspired Sacred Scriptures, see above re your false accusation.
Fourthly, re the KJV you referred to as the "Bible", it refers to a gay (homosexual) king.
Fifthly, many people treat English so-called translations of the Bible as a kind of substitute pontiff. Often versions such as those you referred to.
Sixth, Paul said he counted all things as dung that he may gain Christ. That would include any impediments to the truth, such as blind faith in pontiffs, English versions named KJV, your pastor, Jimmy Swaggart, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Swaggart
Seventh, early church fathers who were universalists & Greek scholars plus being native born Koine Greek speakers oppose your pro hell biased copy-cat cloned English translations which were purposely made to support their own subjective erroneous monstrous opinions:
"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."
"Of course there were antiuniversalists also in the ancient church, but scholars must be careful not to list among them — as is the case with the list of “the 68” antiuniversalists repeatedly cited by McC on the basis of Brian Daley’s The Hope of the Early Church — an author just because he uses πῦρ αἰώνιον, κόλασις αἰώνιος, θάνατος αἰώνιος, or the like, since these biblical expressions do not necessarily refer to eternal damnation. Indeed all universalists, from Origen to Gregory Nyssen to Evagrius, used these phrases without problems, for universalists understood these expressions as “otherworldly,” or “long-lasting,” fire, educative punishment, and death. Thus, the mere presence of such phrases is not enough to conclude that a patristic thinker “affirmed the idea of everlasting punishment” (p. 822). Didache mentions the ways of life and death, but not eternal death or torment; Ignatius, as others among “the 68,” never mentions eternal punishment. Ephrem does not speak of eternal damnation, but has many hints of healing and restoration. For Theodore of Mopsuestia, another of “the 68,” if one takes into account also the Syriac and Latin evidence, given that the Greek is mostly lost, it becomes impossible to list him among the antiuniversalists. He explicitly ruled out unending retributive punishment, sine fine et sine correctione.
I have shown, indeed, that a few of “the 68” were not antiuniversalist, and that the uncertain were in fact universalists, for example, Clement of Alexandria, Apocalypse of Peter, Sibylline Oracles (in one passage), Eusebius, Nazianzen, perhaps even Basil and Athanasius, Ambrose, Jerome before his change of mind, and Augustine in his anti-Manichaean years. Maximus too, another of “the 68,” speaks only of punishment aionios, not aidios and talks about restoration with circumspection after Justinian, also using a persona to express it. Torstein Tollefsen, Panayiotis Tzamalikos, and Maria Luisa Gatti, for instance, agree that he affirmed apokatastasis.
It is not the case that “the support for universalism is paltry compared with opposition to it” (p. 823). Not only were “the 68” in fact fewer than 68, and not only did many “uncertain” in fact support apokatastasis, but the theologians who remain in the list of antiuniversalists tend to be much less important. Look at the theological weight of Origen, the Cappadocians, Athanasius, or Maximus, for instance, on all of whom much of Christian doctrine and dogmas depends. Or think of the cultural significance of Eusebius, the spiritual impact of Evagrius or Isaac of Nineveh, or the philosophico-theological importance of Eriugena, the only author of a comprehensive treatise of systematic theology and theoretical philosophy between Origen’s Peri Archon and Aquinas’s Summa theologiae. Then compare, for instance, Barsanuphius, Victorinus of Pettau, Gaudentius of Brescia, Maximus of Turin, Tyconius, Evodius of Uzala, or Orientius, listed among “the 68” (and mostly ignorant of Greek). McC’s statement, “there are no unambiguous cases of universalist teaching prior to Origen” (p. 823), should also be at least nuanced, in light of Bardaisan, Clement, the Apocalypse of Peter’s Rainer Fragment, parts of the Sibylline Oracles, and arguably of the NT, especially Paul’s letters.
Certainly, “there was a diversity of views in the early church on the scope of final salvation.” Tertullian, for instance, did not embrace apokatastasis. But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis. Thus, I treated the theologians who supported it, and not others."
https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2016/...of-apokatastasis-the-reviews-start-coming-in/
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)
Scholars directory, with list of publications:
Ilaria L.E. Ramelli - ISNS Scholars Directory
I never claimed to know "how to translate the Bible better than anyone who has ever done it for a living since the 1600s." Though there have been many Christian before & since then who were universalists & would not have agreed with a Bible translation that supports endless torments. Which, BTW, leaves such translations contradicting themselves, e.g.:
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…
Do you often quote and then claim a prooftext out of context or is this just a rare occasion?
Have you never quoted a single verse, or a few verses such as i have, in support of a position you think is "proven" by such quotes? Do you reserve such type of comments just for those whose theology you disagree with, or for everyone, including those who support the doctrine of endless tortures & very often quote a single verse in support of their position?
Look at the context around the verses before you claim something that the verse is not saying.
Been there, done that.
And yet you quoted and claimed out of context anyway...
Define "out of context". Would you like me to quote the entire Bible, or would the book or chapter suffice? As if that would change anything i said. Nah.
Have you never quoted a single verse, or a few verses such as i have, in support of a position you think is "proven" by such quotes? Do you reserve such type of comments just for those whose theology you disagree with, or for everyone, including those who support the doctrine of endless tortures & very often quote a single verse in support of their position?
I want to know how Lamentations 3 teaches universalism.
"That any should suffer forever, lingering on in hopeless despair, and rolling amidst infinite torments without the possibility of alleviation and without end; that since God can save men and will save a part, he has not proposed to save all-these are real, not imaginary, difficulties. . . . My whole soul pants for light and relief on these questions. But I get neither; and in the distress and anguish of my own spirit, I confess that I see no light whatever. I see not one ray to disclose to me why sin came into the world; why the earth is strewn with the dying and the dead; and why man must suffer to all eternity. I have never seen a particle of light thrown on these subjects, that has given a moment's ease to my tortured mind . . . I confess, when I look on a world of sinners and sufferers- upon death-beds and grave-yards- upon the world of woe filled with hosts to suffer for ever: when I see my friends, my family, my people, my fellow citizens, when I look upon a whole race, all involved in this sin and danger- and when I see the great mass of them wholly unconcerned, and when I feel that God only can save them, and yet he does not do so, I am struck dumb. It is all dark, dark, dark to my soul, and I cannot disguise it." -- Albert Barnes
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...nbelievers-Spend-Eternity-in-the-Lake-of-Fire
Practical Sermons Designed for Vacant Congregations and Families
By Albert Barnes [p.123ff]
https://books.google.ca/books?id=AN...ver, lingering on in hopeless despair&f=false
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...nbelievers-Spend-Eternity-in-the-Lake-of-Fire
Practical Sermons Designed for Vacant Congregations and Families
By Albert Barnes [p.123ff]
https://books.google.ca/books?id=AN...ver, lingering on in hopeless despair&f=false