As I alluded to at the beginning of this post: Themes dictate an author’s words. And, those themes in Scripture reflect the Spiritual ‘face’ of the divine Author in the mind of the reader: John 14:16, 17, John 14:26 KJV; 1Cor 2:13 KJV, 1Cor 2:14 KJV, 1Cor 2:15 KJV, 1Cor 2:16 KJV. Probably eight years ago I was asked by a PhD theologian, “With all the ancient documents and artifacts authenticating other religions since antiquity… why do you believe in Christianity?” Fair question? My answer was quite simple… “All those ‘who begat who’s’ are the mortar between the bricks in the foundation of my faith.” Do you think Peter was a real person (Matthew 16:16 KJV)? Paul (2Corinthians 1:19, 20)? So, it’s not me floundering in the abyss, Freelight
. Perhaps in your vast studies of Scripture it hasn’t been revealed to you even Messiah’s arrival generation was prophesied some 4,300 years prior in Genesis 4:24 KJV. Count ‘em up, Freelight, “seventy and sevenfold”: God is generation #1, Adam generation #2, Seth #3… and so forth (Luke 3:38 through Luke 3:23 KJV). As I’ve shared with Jews: If Jesus doesn't fill the bill as Messiah for you, you might back up a couple thousand years and pick out another who arrived in that “seventy and sevenfold” inclusive generation from Almighty God (Genesis 4:24 KJV), and perhaps achieve resolution. Remember, those lost sheep Israelites (predominately the fatherless Pharzites and Zarhites, Genesis 38:26 KJV, Numbers 26:20) were deluded believing Messiah had to be a Shelanite (Numbers 26:20) descendant of Judah (Isaiah 65:9) and his Canaanitess wife (1Chronicles 2:3)… speaking of endless genealogies (1Timothy 1:4 KJV; Titus 3:9 KJV). I appreciate your notion you’ve “been here before
”. I happen to have a sense Jesus was “from above” (John 8:23 KJV; Ezekiel 36:26 KJV; John 3:5 KJV; 2Corinthians 5:17 KJV; James 1:17 KJV; John 14:26 KJV; 1Peter 1:23 KJV). And, I have a sense Jesus had been here before being the Tree of Life in the Garden of God. Well, my noggin’s spinning a bit, LOL! Does faith trump blood atonement? It should be old news to you that ceremonial sacrifice to appease the gods, particularly human sacrifice, is found in many religions. Even royal incest and the ritual cannibalism of the misfit progeny thereof, was modestly hinted at in the Bible (Genesis 9:22 KJV; 1Corinthians 5:1 KJV; Revelation 2:20 KJV; 1Kings 18:17, 18, 19; 2Kings 9:36 KJV, 2Kings 9:37 KJV). Didn’t Abraham attempt to sacrifice Isaac: Genesis 22:7, 8, 15, 16, 17, 18 with particular interest in Genesis 22:19 KJV? Reflect again on Genesis 22:8 KJV. The blood of animals was shed before being sacrificed and sprinkled in the temple in Israelite ceremonies corroborated in Gen 9:4 KJV, Lev 19:26 KJV, Deu 12:23 KJV; 1Samuel 14:34 KJV… To the contrary, pagan religions practiced incest as a manner of reincarnation (‘reborn’), and they sacrificed their misfit progeny that were roasted alive (Leviticus 18:21 KJV; 2Kings 23:10 KJV) and ceremonially devoured as another aspect of reincarnation (Revelation 2:20 KJV).
Abraham was about to filet Isaac and roast him… Do you think Abraham was a real person? What did Abraham tell Isaac: “My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering” (Genesis 22:8 KJV)? What’s particularly unique to a burnt offering is that Noah instituted this ceremony involving “clean beasts” immediately following the flood (Genesis 8:20 KJV) which ‘appeased’ God (Gen 8:21 KJV, Gen 8:22 KJV). It appears as though clean beasts were uniquely non-predatory among other differences. But, that doesn’t mean God’s wrath won’t be poured out upon life as we know it, again (Luke 3:2, 7; Mat 23:33 KJV). I don’t think Jesus bled to death on the cross, although His blood was shed. His body wasn’t burned, but His Spirit ‘ascended’ from the cross leaving His flesh body to resurrect (John 19:30 KJV).
Perhaps Jesus’ immaculate conception is a bit of a stretch also, Freelight. Isaiah’s Messianic progenitor (Isaiah 65:9) was miraculously conceived (Genesis 29:31 KJV, Genesis 29:35 KJV). Judah’s father Jacob-Israel was miraculously conceived (Genesis 25:21 KJV). Jacob’s father Isaac was miraculously conceived (Genesis 18:10 KJV). Even John the baptizer was miraculously conceived (Luke 1:13, 18). Are you grasping a theme, here? And, you’re telling me I “don't even know if a historical Jesus existed, or is some configuration of a myth maybe built upon a particular man or men, but later historicized, or aspects of the historical mythologized (play-reversal)”? I find your humor quite amusing, Sarah Freelight (Genesis 18:13 KJV, Genesis 18:14 KJV),
! I humbly appreciate your faith, and reflect on your notion of repentance, Freelight. I scoff at the guilt-laden aspect of blood atonement typically used by Bible thumpers pointing their long boney, hypocritical fingers casting guilt trips from the pulpits. Those advocates often associate their guilt-laden ‘alter call’ with the verse taken out of context: “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34 KJV). As with verse John 8:24 KJV, Jesus was speaking directly and exclusively to those non-Israelites (John 8:33 KJV) premeditating His crucifixion. Those verses ignorantly taken out of context and used accusing the brethren typically inspires me to mount my war horse! I do not subscribe to shame-based theology (Romans 5:5 KJV; Hebrews 12:1 KJV, Hebrews 12:2 KJV).
When I say my adoption papers were signed in the precious blood of the Lamb, I declare the authenticity of Jesus being a pure-blooded Israelite descendant of Judah (Isaiah 65:9) and his daughter-in-law Tamar (Mat 1:3), whose Israelite heritage (daughter of a priest) can only be deduced in Scripture, to my finding (Genesis 28:24 KJV; Lev 21:9 KJV). Thereby, I declare Jesus being God’s sacrificial Lamb in human flesh without spot or blemish, and His blood was shed to preempt the wrath of God for those who believe through faith, as did Noah and his antediluvian sons. Without spot or blemish means to me that Jesus’ ancestry, His hame, His bloodline are entirely intact, a just man and perfect in His generations (Gen 6:9 KJV, Gen 6:10 KJV), and uncorrupted (Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3; Deuteronomy 23:2, 3, 6; Ezra 9:1, 2, Ezra 9:7 KJV).
Atonement was mentioned some 82 times in the OT, and only once in the NT by Paul in Romans 5:11 KJV. By submitting to crucifixion, Jesus was fulfilling the FIRST half of the commandment He received from His Father (John 10:17, 18). Subsequent to His innocent blood being willfully shed following His’ Father’s command, now the opportunity arose for His resurrection, the SECOND half of the commandment. Thereby, God ended animal sacrifices exclusively incumbent upon the Israelite descendants of the Hebrew Abraham, who was the descendant of Eber/Heber (Luke 3:34, 35), who was a descendant of Noah’s son, Shem (Genesis 10:21 KJV) Furthermore, this Sacrificial completion opened the door of hope for salvation to Gentile descendants of Noah’s son Japheth (Genesis 9:27, 10:2, 3, 4, Genesis 10:5 KJV) who apparently didn’t perform animal sacrifices.
I love the God of my Lord Jesus Christ. Your mention of “Loving Father” and “Father’s love” seems a bit less definitive. Do you love the God of Fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Wasn’t Abraham a loving father? He sired progeny via Hagar, Sarah, Keturah and concubines. I’m utterly resolved Abraham loved “the children of Keturah” (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4); but, they apparently had other plans during Abraham’s funeral (Genesis 25:9 KJV)… kinda like Esau out in the wilderness hunting Hittite hotties returning to Jacob’s meal of mourning over the death of Abraham. Esau came home with stale wine on his breath, wreaking of cheap perfume, and with hickey’s all over him, ROFLOL! Speaking of my delusions…
Jesus did tell those instigating His crucifixion, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins; for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” (John 8:24 KJV). I previously suggested their sins included the predatory, premeditating murder of a righteous man. Indeed that was the case, and there’s more to that story. They judged according to the flesh (John 8:15 KJV). What does that mean?
Listen to these accounts of Jesus’ genetic healing miracles as He said something along the lines, ‘thy sins be forgiven thee, thy faith has made thee whole’: Mark 2:5 KJV, Mark 2:9 KJV; Luke 7:48 KJV. This reveals a different aspect of ‘sin’ that we do not consider, today. Those flesh afflictions were genetic and heritable. One so afflicted was of impure ancestry assumed to be the progeny of ancestral violations of God’s laws regarding procreation found mostly in Leviticus, Leviticus 20:17 KJV being an example. Wasn’t Abraham married to his half-sister by the same father? Do recall Isaac was miraculously conceived (Genesis 18:14 KJV). Isaac was married to his cousin Rebekah, and Jacob was miraculously conceived (Genesis 25:21 KJV). Jacob was married to two cousin-sister wives contrary to Leviticus 18:18 KJV, and Judah was miraculously conceived (Genesis 29:31, 35).
Listen again to those detractors, “We be Abraham’s seed…” and “we be not born of fornication…” (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:41 KJV). They were proclaiming unadulterated ancestry as they glossed over Judah’s pristine ancestry, btw. Just like Abraham, Judah was a sperm donor (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4). Considering Isaiah 65:9; who was Jesus’ ancestress, Tamar (Mat 1:3 KJV)? Who was Keturah? Now, please reconsider Jesus’ words to them, “Which of you convinceth me of sin? And, if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?” (John 8:46 KJV). Jesus, without spot or blemish, had no genetic afflictions. Perhaps the title “Hypocrites!” (Matthew 23:13, 14, 15, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27) is more encompassing than we realize. Jesus’ blood was shed authenticating Him as the Son of God fulfilling Genesis 3:15 KJV; John 10:17, 18. When I proclaim my adoption papers were signed in the precious blood of the Lamb, I’m declaring Jesus an authentic Pharzite-Israelite Jew, and I’m His adopted flesh blood-brother, figuratively speaking. His blood was shed following God’s command for the remission of sin (Mat 26:27 KJV, Mat 26:28 KJV). I think believing through faith that Jesus, and Him crucified, is the Son of God, trumps faith without this testimony.
Your generous invitation to your ‘cosmic cafe’ thread is sincerely appreciated Freelight, indeed. Thank you! I’m entirely honored with your participation here, in fact. So, grab your hookah… and we’ll “hash out the subject of Jesus’ divinity as germane to this thread.” I’m as resolute Jesus is the Son of God, as I am the son of my father, although I have heard slanderous accusations in both accounts. Even folk in my corner of the county have told me I’m my father’s son not knowing who I was! We favor… and, folk tell my son who his father is… we favor. So much for flesh themes in “tight” circles, right? My flesh father raised me, and God raised His Son ‘gestating’ some 4,300 years with the last nine months in Mary’s womb: “seventy and sevenfold” inclusive generations (Genesis 4:24 KJV, Luke 3:38-23).
I suppose one way to meet the Creator is to study His creation, although there are plenty of skeptics clueless about the genetic matters of Scripture. You have your abstract perspective which appears to be a top -> down approach. My perspective is more along the lines of a bottom -> up trajectory. You have your impressive literary philosophical and theological resources beyond the Bible; and, I have my resources from the physical world exploring the likes of Nobel Prize winners Meselson & Stahl, and Watson & Crick.
http://www.chemheritage.org/discove...ecules/dna/watson-crick-wilkins-franklin.aspx
http://www.pnas.org/content/101/52/17895.full
Freelight, in one breath you tell me you’ve “never contested Jesus having a 'God' and 'Father' which is evident in him being the Son of God by definition, origination and relationship.” By definition, isn’t that a ‘gimme’? The Trin’s don’t buy it. Yet, you never attested that Jesus was the Son of God in your slogans “Loving Father” and “Father’s love”, perhaps elsewhere. In the next breath you presumptuously and rather audaciously stated that I, kayaker, “don't even know if a historical Jesus existed, or is some configuration of a myth maybe built upon a particular man or men, but later historicized, or aspects of the historical mythologized (play-reversal)”? Talk about “play reversal”,
. You’ve claimed to be a “liberal gnostic”, an “agnostic”, a “gnostic”, a “mystic” and a “charismatic”. I always wondered what a “Unitarian” is. Perhaps when the smoke settles from our hookahs…kayaker
Last edited:
