"Demonic possession," or mental illness?
- Thread starter annabenedetti
- Start date
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
I'll give your post some thought.
People can be mentally ill and not possessed of the Devil.
Yes of course they can, and are.
annabenedetti
like marbles on glass
What I'm getting at is the idea of people who've been thought to be possessed who were actually mentally ill.
Assumed or accused - or both - of something spiritual when it was actually something biological?
Well then maybe some good old fashioned corroborative citations would help support your assertions here?
Simply making accusations is NOT substantive at all.
Hedshaker
New member
And the question is, how does he tell the difference?
RevTestament
New member
Hi Anna.
They usually say God does not punish the children for the sins of their father, like the Bible does. Original sin is a doctrine - not biblical truth.
A Catholic one? A god of creeds and doctrines of men?
Since God does not hold innocent babies accountable for the sins of others, they cannot die in sin. Christ saves them in their innocence.
And very good questions they are! Physical death was brought into the world on account of the fall. Thus, man is made in mortality. It is not a punishment for sin, but a consequence of the fall, that man's body became mortal and fallen. Thus, we were offered an escape through the tree of life or Christ.
It is important to try to understand what YHWH Elohim said once man had eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil:
Gen 3:22 ¶And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
Without being tested and tried and experiencing evil, man could not "become as one of us," and would fail in the reason for our earthly creation. Orthodoxy teaches this is evil trickery and temptation of the serpent. Orthodoxy has completely misinterpreted the story of Adam and Eve....
Yes, the are exceptions to every rule. That said, I was trying to suggest to you that the life cycle of a human individual mirrors that of us as a species. Jesus ushered us into puberty. The best is yet to come.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Hey Anna,
I apologize for jumping in here. Quick question.
Do you think it is possible that the story of Jonah is historical narrative and actually happened, or that it is completely impossible?
Two problems with that approach as I see it. The first is that it doesn't solve the dilemma Angel notes. The second is that there's no reason to separate the resurrection from that miracle in terms of how it's approached/addressed within the narrative. I do believe in literary devices and that the Bible contains a good many, along with certain rhetorical traditions, but I don't think we can simply assign those without cause and the cause would be found within the context of the parable or other less than literal illustration of a principle.
I remember. And however a discipline changes in approach (or for however long) it seems to me that we're still left with a potent testimony, not by an ancient person struggling for a context but someone with among the best educations within our modern understanding confronting a thing he (for a number of reasons, some striking, given in that book) can't comfortably lay at the feet of mental illness, a man driven by that and other experiences out of a comfortable academic mindset and into a belief not only in evil, but in a particular and willful manifestation of it. One that the book of those ancient peoples confirms.
Good to have you back on he boards for a bit.
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Two problems with that approach as I see it. The first is that it doesn't solve the dilemma Angle notes. The second is that there's no reason to separate the resurrection from that miracle in terms of how it's approached/addressed within the narrative. I do believe in literary devices and that the Bible contains a good many, along with certain rhetorical traditions, but I don't think we can simply assign those without cause and the cause would be found within the context of the parable or other less than literal illustration of a principle.
I remember. And however a discipline changes in approach (or for however long) it seems to me that we're still left with a potent testimony, not by an ancient person struggling for a context but someone with among the best educations within our modern understanding confronting a thing he (for a number of reasons, some striking, given in that book) can't comfortably lay at the feet of mental illness, a man driven by that and other experiences out of a comfortable academic mindset and into a belief not only in evil, but in a particular and willful manifestation of it. One that the book of those ancient people's confirms.
Good to have you back on he boards for a bit.
This is a very difficult subject because of its ramifications in either direction.
However, I have looked into the eyes of evil that took my breath away. I don't really know what it is but it is terrifying when encountered.
pqmomba8
New member
You plant a garden in your backyard. Do the plants have a judicial right to pass judgement on your decisions of when to weed it, water it, prune it, or how to harvest?
Holy Molly - did you give ANY thought to this when you replied?
LOL Talk about a serious case of false equivocation!!! (Probably the worst I've ever read!!) So you are comparing the non-thinking simple cell life with the highest evolved being capable of an abstract thought? Seriously dude (or dudette).........Shalom!
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Again....both 'biological' and 'spiritual' elements may be present.....
Again....both 'biological' and 'spiritual' elements may be present.....
As explained earlier here,....one must do both 'psychological(biological/physiological) and 'spiritual' research into the matter, and in each individual case....then it can be ascertained by the data the best method of treatment to facilitate the healing and deliverance of the person. Again, logical and rational. Some therapists trained in 'Spirit-release' therapy assist persons who have spirit-attachments in freeing the individuals and assisting in the healing and freedom of the disincarnate spirits as well,...its a rather 'holistic' approach.
A church member can use both healing prayers from their ministers/congregation and from trained therapists in psychology and 'spirit-release' techniques as well. The latter spectrum of therapy does sometimes include accepting the concept of 'past-lives', sub-selves, created personalities, earth-bound entities, etc....so it works from this larger context using as much data that can be gathered to apply the most effective healing treatment. If enough research is done to include such in any individual case, why not use that info. to effect the proper healing? Without some info. healing will not occur, so its best to learn as much as possible of BOTH 'psychological' and 'spiritual' elements that are involved.
Furthermore, your own church has 'exorcists' and 'rites for exorcism' (a special order),...so they definitely believe they are exorcising evil spirits, FULLY accepting that in some cases there is demonic possession or obsession (at varying levels), and that in these cases sometimes EXORCISM is necessary. So,...you would need to stay open-minded and consider all of this (stay open to research), which a mere 'dismissal' would be premature or foolish in the long run.
pj
Again....both 'biological' and 'spiritual' elements may be present.....
As explained earlier here,....one must do both 'psychological(biological/physiological) and 'spiritual' research into the matter, and in each individual case....then it can be ascertained by the data the best method of treatment to facilitate the healing and deliverance of the person. Again, logical and rational. Some therapists trained in 'Spirit-release' therapy assist persons who have spirit-attachments in freeing the individuals and assisting in the healing and freedom of the disincarnate spirits as well,...its a rather 'holistic' approach.
A church member can use both healing prayers from their ministers/congregation and from trained therapists in psychology and 'spirit-release' techniques as well. The latter spectrum of therapy does sometimes include accepting the concept of 'past-lives', sub-selves, created personalities, earth-bound entities, etc....so it works from this larger context using as much data that can be gathered to apply the most effective healing treatment. If enough research is done to include such in any individual case, why not use that info. to effect the proper healing? Without some info. healing will not occur, so its best to learn as much as possible of BOTH 'psychological' and 'spiritual' elements that are involved.
Furthermore, your own church has 'exorcists' and 'rites for exorcism' (a special order),...so they definitely believe they are exorcising evil spirits, FULLY accepting that in some cases there is demonic possession or obsession (at varying levels), and that in these cases sometimes EXORCISM is necessary. So,...you would need to stay open-minded and consider all of this (stay open to research), which a mere 'dismissal' would be premature or foolish in the long run.
pj
Hedshaker
New member
You know, I'm wondering if a totally placid, none obtrusive, none violent exorcism might have some sort of placebo effect. But then I remind myself we are dealing with someone with mental health issues.... so no. Don't do it. Hand it over to genuine psychiatric professionals. You wouldn't trust magic to heal someone with, say cancer, so don't do it with some one with mental health issues.
There is no such thing proven by science as "spiritual issues". You might as well hand the problem over to a witch doctor
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Hurdles for skeptics..........
Hurdles for skeptics..........
Lets be cognizant of the vast domain and dynamics of 'consciousness', as 'mind' attempts to discern or allocate what is 'real' or 'unreal', and that aspects of one's own psyche, and/or aspects of another 'psyche' affecting one's psyche CAN play into matters, which is conditioning the one beset with mental issues. (hence the possibility of spirit-influence, past-lives, sub-selves, elementals, inherited tendencies, etc.).
So again,...leaving 'witch doctors' asides.....a 'spirit-release' therapist also trained in basic psychological techniques, but having more 'tools' in his medicine kit....can possibly help out in ways that other helpers cannot. Again, the value of researching a case as far as possible along the path of treatment, and using that data to apply various methods to effect a true healing. That's the key
Since we are dealing with the complex nature of the human psyche,...and the realm of consciousness itself (all its inter-plays, possibilities and potential)....we may have more at work here in contributions of insanity, than just a biological imbalance. But,...here things can just get circular,...so will pass the baton
pj
Hurdles for skeptics..........
Lets be cognizant of the vast domain and dynamics of 'consciousness', as 'mind' attempts to discern or allocate what is 'real' or 'unreal', and that aspects of one's own psyche, and/or aspects of another 'psyche' affecting one's psyche CAN play into matters, which is conditioning the one beset with mental issues. (hence the possibility of spirit-influence, past-lives, sub-selves, elementals, inherited tendencies, etc.).
So again,...leaving 'witch doctors' asides.....a 'spirit-release' therapist also trained in basic psychological techniques, but having more 'tools' in his medicine kit....can possibly help out in ways that other helpers cannot. Again, the value of researching a case as far as possible along the path of treatment, and using that data to apply various methods to effect a true healing. That's the key
Since we are dealing with the complex nature of the human psyche,...and the realm of consciousness itself (all its inter-plays, possibilities and potential)....we may have more at work here in contributions of insanity, than just a biological imbalance. But,...here things can just get circular,...so will pass the baton
pj
... who will promptly prescribe an "anti-depressant" that finds you on the nightly news after having killed someone and then killed yourself.
:nono:
zoo22
Well-known member
It's mostly for witches, but I think it ought to work for demons too... A good solution to finding out if a person is possessed or if they just have a so-called "psychological" ailment, is to tie them up and throw them into a lake. If they float, they're possessed (water will reject the evil, so they won't sink). If they sink, they're okay and they've probably just got some sort of discipline-related problem that could be fixed up quickly enough if you don't spare the rod. That is, it could be fixed up if they weren't dead, on the bottom of the lake. But that just means they're in Heaven, so all's well that ends well.
Are you volunteering?