Im not arminian nor calvinist was only making a point that choice is still choice if you know what someone will choose
Delmar's POD 11-3-14
- Thread starter Delmar
- Start date
Im not arminian nor calvinist was only making a point that choice is still choice if you know what someone will choose
Oh how convenient...so, on one hand you say:
But on the other hand you say:
Define your quote above for us, you can't have both ways either God determine/controls humanity's every action as you said to Right Divider or He does not control every action and humanity has the free will choice to choose good or evil. Every action would include evil/sin. Please explain...
Excellent. This also defines miracles. Its a favorite atheist talking point.
Then you contend that God is the father of sin since He determines it? The father of evil since He controls the every action of His creation?
I haven't, you have...
Actually you have whether you understand what your espousing or not. If you say that God determines/controls whether His creation sins (or not) than that is exactly what you have said, your statement has made God the author of sin. :nono:
That is true but, I am not the one that has made the statement which when rendered down comes to that conclusion all on it's own. If you don't see a problem with your position, your blind.
MrDeets
TOL Subscriber
LOL, Tam, atheist or not, you KNOW I am incapable of being boring. :chuckle:
MrDeets
TOL Subscriber
:yawn:
True. Anything but boring!
You are the life of the party.
There was nothing wrong with his logic.
I don't know who he's calling "young" as he's younger than me.
In your example there was inference based on past knowledge. In the discussion of free will and God's foreknowledge that is not part of the debate. According to the argument of those who are not of the open view God's foreknowledge is exhaustive, definite and stretches back to eternity past. In other words, according to them God knew what I would wear today before He created anything. Do you agree with that view?
yes, but i rather think that God isnt interested in focusing on that.
Well, at least we agree on half. I am fully convinced, by Scripture, that God did not know, because the information did not exist. In fact, the available information from which He could select a choice for the possibility did not exist then.
Can you tell me why you believe it did?
We have debated this before, nothing about it has changed for me. I do not limit God.
Dialogos
Well-known member
In your theology, is God capable of restraining sin or not?
Right Divider
Body part
Some here think that God created sin.
Neither do I. I did not ask you why you think God is not limited. I asked why you think time is not limited. Why do you think tomorrow existed to be known before God even decided to create?
I think God is capable of working all things together - there are countless verses that testify to His having foreknowledge of all things. See our last debate on it for some of the relevant verses, i have no desire to debate it again.
- No such verses exist.
- I didn't ask about God's foreknowledge, so that is irrelevant.
- Stop avoiding the issue and answer the question I actually asked.
musterion
Well-known member
I disagree. He wrote,
Given the prior conversation, "have to do" seemed to imply "forced to do." If I misread him on that point then the problem is mine but I don't think I did.
If God happens to foreknow everything people will choose to do, that foreknowledge does not reduce their choices to non-choices. It does not equate with Him "forcing" them to do what is foreknown. Sure, if it's foreknown, they will "have" to do it (yes, I understand the can of worms that opens) but that still wouldn't equate with Him "making" them do anything. Those are two independent propositions.
JosephR
New member
sure time is limited, all things that have a beginning are.
Gen 1:1
here you see time start. "In the beginning" stop there...
this is an open plane in geometry and any geometry student will tell you a plane is infinite in theory. But we know the word infinite makes no sense.
So , In the beginning ,time starts, God created, on His plane, the Heavens and the Earth ie the Universe.
Time did not start till creation, and God did not create Himself in creation.
Your a smart guy but your afraid to disagree with your teachers. and that will limit you friend.
Can one do anything other than what God knows they will do? Are the able to? Do they have the freedom to do so?
You don't know me, so don't pretend to. I came to this site fully believing in the Arminian view of time and God's relation to it; including His foreknowledge. I believed time was created in the events recorded in Genesis1, regardless of the fact that no such statement is ever made; throughout the entire Bible.
time is limited in that the present moment is all there is at any given moment. The past is gone, never to be seen again. And the future is yet to be. Neither exists outside of memories and concepts. And God cannot be within that which is non-extant. He cannot see that which does not exist and therefore cannot be seen.
musterion
Well-known member
IF He exhaustively knows all that we all will or won't do...if He knows whether I'll order a BLT or a Reuben nine years from now...then I'd guess the answer would be no, we don't. But I was not looking to enter into this debate. There's too much that seems philosophical white area speculation and assumption making, on both sides, so I shy away from it. There's good points made by both too, but too much 'secret things are God's' about all this to me. I only wanted to show what I see as a hole in an atheist's reasoning about God, and nothing else.