Davar - Memra - Logos
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PneumaPsucheSoma
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I had unsubscribed to this thread since it has been idle. i just randomly saw your post a few minutes ago.
That's maybe an over-simplification, but yes. The intangible and spiritual is quite literal, and has precedence over the natural. Literal does not mean tangible and natural relative to the cosmos.
God is not tangible, and nothing is more literal than God as Creator of all tangibility.
Most modern Literalists are Naturalists; presuming literal somehow excludes the intangible. But the intangible has preeminence of literal reality.
Great thread to add more to.
Hebrew - Dabar
Aramaic - Memra
Greek - Logos
English - Word
When one compares them in the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and English bibles it becomes very clear who the term is speaking of.
Dabar Memra Logos Word was a term used as an anthropomorphic expression of the actual presense of the Lord in spacial and/or visible content.
In other words, shown as a distinct visible manifestation of the same invisible Lord (YHWH).
(Distinct but the same.)
The Aramaic Bible - Targum Neofiti:
Which is the same concept as:
English Bible has:
Deuteronomy 18
(19) And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.
The Aramaic Bible (Targum) has: "My Word [memra] will require it."
Targum has:
Revelation 19
(13) He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word [Logos] of God.
Hebrew - Dabar
Aramaic - Memra
Greek - Logos
English - Word
When one compares them in the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, and English bibles it becomes very clear who the term is speaking of.
Dabar Memra Logos Word was a term used as an anthropomorphic expression of the actual presense of the Lord in spacial and/or visible content.
In other words, shown as a distinct visible manifestation of the same invisible Lord (YHWH).
(Distinct but the same.)
Genesis 15
(1) After these things the word [dabar] of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
.
.
(4) And behold, the word [dabar] of the LORD came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son shall be your heir.”
1 Samuel 3
(21) And the LORD appeared again at Shiloh, for the LORD revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word [dabar] of the LORD.
Psalms 107
(20) He [the Lord] sent out his word [dabar] and healed them, and delivered them from their destruction.
The Aramaic Bible - Targum Neofiti:
Genesis 1:1
"From the beginning with wisdom the Word [memra] of the Lord created and perfected the heavens and the earth."
Which is the same concept as:
Psalms 33
(6) By the word [dabar] of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
and....
John 1
(1) In the beginning was the Word [logos], and the Word [logos] was with God, and the Word [logos] was God.
(2) He was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
English Bible has:
Deuteronomy 18
(19) And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.
The Aramaic Bible (Targum) has: "My Word [memra] will require it."
Targum has:
"The Word [memra] is the consumming fire".
"My Word [memra] laid the foundation of the earth".
"The Word [memra] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel."
"The Word [memra] will roar to gather the exiled"
"In the Word [memra] the redemtion shall be found."
"My Glory I shall put among you, my Word [memra] shall be unto you a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto my Name a holy people."
Compare to:
John 1
(14) And the Word [logos] became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Revelation 19
(13) He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word [Logos] of God.
7djengo7
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A vast, potentially extremely rewarding topic for delving. I have so much to learn, and hopefully I can sooner or later get around to making some headway in it. A few years ago, I bought a substantial book about it (though admittedly have never got too far into it yet) that may be of interest: https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Trinity-Rabbis-Believed-Father/dp/1439298203.
Another (much older) book that (if I'm not mistaken) deals with the nowadays scarcely-heard-of (and if heard of, mainly mocked and rejected) fact that the ancient Hebrews were, indeed, Trinitarians, is:
The Judgement of the Ancient Jewish Church Against the Unitarians in the Controversy Upon the Holy Trinity and the Divinity of Our Blessed Saviour:
A vast, potentially extremely rewarding topic for delving. I have so much to learn, and hopefully I can sooner or later get around to making some headway in it. A few years ago, I bought a substantial book about it (though admittedly have never got too far into it yet) that may be of interest: https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Trinity-Rabbis-Believed-Father/dp/1439298203.
Another (much older) book that (if I'm not mistaken) deals with the nowadays scarcely-heard-of (and if heard of, mainly mocked and rejected) fact that the ancient Hebrews were, indeed, Trinitarians, is:
The Judgement of the Ancient Jewish Church Against the Unitarians in the Controversy Upon the Holy Trinity and the Divinity of Our Blessed Saviour:
View attachment 8022
Right.
Alan Segal and Benjamin Sommer are two Jewish scholars that have also written books documenting a lot of the ancient Jewish writings that speak of it.
And neither of them believe Jesus is the Messiah, so one cannot say they have a "Christian" bias.
And yet they both readily admit that the ancient Jews believed for centuries that YHWH was a plurality, and yet still considered YHWH to be the one and only creator God.