Creation vs. Evolution

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DFT_Dave

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LIFETIME MEMBER
You love to quote mine (read 'lie about') Gould, so quote mine this!

As a term, CREATION SCIENCE is an oxymoron - a self-contradictory and meaningless phrase - a whitewash for a specific, particular, and minority religious view in America, biblical literalism.​
from 'Creation Science is an Oxymoron', Gould

"Creation evolution" would be an oxymoron, a self contradiction.

Creation science presupposes that an "intelligent supernatural Being" created nature and everything whole and complete to reproduced after their kind just as we see life today. The fossil record confirms this.

Evolution science presupposes that "non-intelligent nature" created everything gradually one mutation after another. The fossil record and life today reject this.

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You are a blatant liar, a fraud and a false prophet. I am certain God does not need you to lie on His behave. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but you are too oblivious to even know you are doing wrong.

In short, you are the scum of the earth. I sure hope you do/did not procreate.

:blabla:

--Dave
 

Jukia

New member
Creation science presupposes that an "intelligent supernatural Being" created nature and everything whole and complete to reproduced after their kind just as we see life today. The fossil record confirms this.

Evolution science presupposes that "non-intelligent nature" created everything gradually one mutation after another. The fossil record and life today reject this.

--Dave

You must have your own personal secret fossil record. Want to share it with the rest of the world? Expose all those paleontologists who, if they gave you any thought at all, would think you a fool. You show 'em Davey.
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
That's because the Bible is a book that requires more of an interpretation based on evidence newly discovered. As St. Augustine has pointed out, if the evidence does not match our interpretation of the Bible, then perhaps our interpretation is faulty.

You have willfully misrepresented what Gould has said. And even when corrected you continue to repeat the error. This is does not bolster anyone's confidence level in your level of awareness and/or honesty. In short, you make it abundantly clear that you are not to be trusted.

:blabla:

--Dave
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You must have your own personal secret fossil record. Want to share it with the rest of the world? Expose all those paleontologists who, if they gave you any thought at all, would think you a fool. You show 'em Davey.

Been there done that. Where you been?

--Dave
 

6days

New member
You must have your own personal secret fossil record. Want to share it with the rest of the world? Expose all those paleontologists who, if they gave you any thought at all, would think you a fool. You show 'em Davey.
Jukia.. condescending remarks like that make it seem as if you are angry that people believe different from you. It seems you are angry that Dave interprets the fossil record different from you.

Re your comment about "all those paleontologists"..... Here is one who got his PhD under the tutelage of Stephen Gould...
Kurt Wise said:
The design of the schizochroal eye makes it unique among eyes; perhaps even to the point of being the best optical system known in the biological world. This design, in fact, seems to far exceed the needs of the trilobite. The origin of the design of the schizochroal eye is not understood by means of any known natural cause. Rather, it is best understood as being due to an intelligent (design-creating) cause, through a process involving remarkably high manipulative ability. Among available hypotheses, creation by God is the most reasonable hypothesis for the origin of the complexity of the trilobite’s schizochroal eye.

.
 

noguru

Well-known member
Gould and Eldredge reject Darwinian slow gradualism that is not seen in the rocks for rapid gradualism that is not seen in the rocks either. "Rapid gradualism", that's an oxymoron.

--Dave

:rotfl:

What is the cutoff for you between rapid and gradual, 100 years, 1k years, 10k years...?

What do you think that cutoff is for Gould and Eldredge?
 

noguru

Well-known member
Jukia.. condescending remarks like that make it seem as if you are angry that people believe different from you. It seems you are angry that Dave interprets the fossil record different from you.

Re your comment about "all those paleontologists"..... Here is one who got his PhD under the tutelage of Stephen Gould...


.

Why? It seems that what Jukia noticed is implicit in Dave's claims about his evidence. All he has done is provided a couple of issues that are quite irrelevant as support for his model.
 

alwight

New member
Gould and Eldredge reject Darwinian slow gradualism that is not seen in the rocks for rapid gradualism that is not seen in the rocks either. "Rapid gradualism", that's an oxymoron.

--Dave
I think that typically and consistently you choose to miss or ignore the point Dave.
You erroneously attempt to infer from Gould that an instantaneous appearance of a particular life form can be concluded from the study of geology, despite the vast time spans that geology actually portrays.
To my knowledge Darwin didn't even try specify how gradual, gradual actually must be, "gradual" is a relative, imprecise term.
You however, with your YEC agenda, choose to look down the wrong end of a telescope because actually you don't really want to see how gradual even rapid evolution can be.

Given that a whole environment can change very rapidly indeed or otoh it can remain steady for many thousands/millions of years, as often seen in geology as straight lines, it doesn't surprise me that the life within it responded very rapidly to environmental change or otoh remains largely unchanged if no particular change is called for.

There is no evidence at all that complex life forms can only be explained by a sudden instantaneous appearance, but there is plenty of evidence that life can respond very rapidly indeed when it has to. Any such rapid change would be highly unlikely to be evident from geology and its timescale.
 

gcthomas

New member
Oh, but they do. Sure, the SLoT says that mutations will happen, but the result is a loss of information. So both Shannon's theory AND the SLoT combined give us the certainty that all mutations enter at the transmission phase of information passing from one generation to the next.

Would you deny that? Are you saying that mutations don't happen, or if they do happen that they aren't entering at the transmission phase? Which is it?

The clue is in the name Second Law of Thermodynamics is that it is to do with heat, not information. The SLoT does not apply generally to information theory. There is no equivalent, in thermodynamics, of Shannon's Noisy Channel Theorem: thermodynamics can be considered a sub-class of information theory, but laws of thermodynamics do not propogate upwards to all information theory applications.

Entropy in communication is different from entropy in physics despite the video I posted earlier saying otherwise. So which are you talking about?

Then why do you keep conflating them and assume that laws of thermodynamics apply to information?

Yes, I'd agree that since entropy is hard to define that Common Descentists love to use the word since it muddies the waters.

You have that completely reversed: I've been telling you that you are equivocating for weeks over the term entropy, but you keep bringing it up.

But in common parlance entropy is why ice will melt in a cup of water. Even though entropy is really the measure of the changed states of the glass over time, we say entropy is why the ice melts. Sure, that isn't technically accurate. But if you have a better word to use, then please do tell. Go ahead, substitute a single word in place of where "entropy" is normally used: Ice melts in a glass of water because of ______.

.. because of being heated above its melting point so average kinetic energy of the particles approach or exceed the bond energies.

Don't like that one? Try this one: A frying pan cools when it's taken off the stove because of ______.

.. because of the temperature difference between it and its surroundings, along with gravity and the expansion of gases as they are heated, sets up a convection current which carries away hot air.

Now, you might want to put "the second law of thermodynamics" in that spot,

Nope. That Law is not about a process that can get thigs done, but it places restrictions on changes in state variables.

but even Prof. Lambert says, "Because entropy is an index of the second law's predictions about energy, the short word entropy is often used interchangeably for the cumbersome phrase, "the second law of thermodynamics"." So feel free to do that if you like. Would you like to do that?

The second Law is inappropriate for describing the causes of events, so I wouldn't use that term in the situations you set up.

I can, with 100% accuracy predict that GCT will not provide us with a better word to use because of 2 things. The first is what I already pointed out; that CDists never like things to be clear. The second is that there is not better term.

You equivocate endlessly, so are you ready to answer MY questions, for the avoidance of you appearing to muddy the water again?

  1. Do you agree with Shannon's Noisy Channel Coding Theorem (Shannon's Theorem) that communication can be managed with arbitrarily small data losses, unlike thermodynamic systems and their entropy rises?
  2. Are you aware that most mutations don't increase the information entropy, since information entropy is simply a measure of how much information is needed for coding and not a measure of meaning or usefulness?
 

gcthomas

New member
Evolution is gradualism. By saying "gradualism...was not seen in the rocks", Gould, by definition, was saying evolution is not seen in the rocks.

:nono:

You seem to be a compulsive liar. Your statement is so blatantly false, I don't know how you have the affront to repeat such nonsense.

:confused:
 

6days

New member
Given that a whole environment can change very rapidly indeed
True... That is observable science. It also is the Biblical creation model.

or otoh it can remain steady for many thousands/millions of years, as often seen in geology as straight lines...
That is not unobservable science. It is your beliefs. There are geologists, biologists and paleontologists who interpret the evidence as being only a few thousand years.
 

alwight

New member
That is not unobservable science. It is your beliefs. There are geologists, biologists and paleontologists who interpret the evidence as being only a few thousand years.
Nonsense, it is a very reasonable conclusion to hold that geological strata represents both periods of time and specific environments, just as with dendrochronology or do you think that tree rings are only an "evolutionist's" belief?
 

DFT_Dave

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Are you saying that what you provided so far in this thread is your fossil record that supports your model of origins?

The fossil record has already been established, stasis and sudden appearance.

Didn't you get the memo? :rotfl:

--Dave
 

6days

New member
Nonsense, it is a very reasonable conclusion to hold that geological strata represents both periods of time and specific environments, just as with dendrochronology or do you think that tree rings are only an "evolutionist's" belief?
There are geologists, and even geologist associations who don't agree with your interpetation of geological layers. They say the evidence supports rapid deposition and short time periods. It depends on what your starting bias is. Evolutionists NEED billions of years, and they interpret the evidence according to their beliefs. Biblical Creationists believe God's Word is true and accurate, so they interpret evidence according to their beliefs.

Tree rings are observable.
Tree rings like any other evidence require interpretation.
Generally there is agreement on the interpretation of tree rings...one year per ring...usually / not always.
 

6days

New member
The fossil record has already been established, stasis and sudden appearance.

Didn't you get the memo? :rotfl:

--Dave

Not so far from me is the Burgess shale. Its known for the sudden appearance in the fossil record of many life-forms with no ancestral forms.
That memo?? The real evidence?
 

alwight

New member
There are geologists, and even geologist associations who don't agree with your interpetation of geological layers. They say the evidence supports rapid deposition and short time periods. It depends on what your starting bias is. Evolutionists NEED billions of years, and they interpret the evidence according to their beliefs. Biblical Creationists believe God's Word is true and accurate, so they interpret evidence according to their beliefs.

Tree rings are observable.
Tree rings like any other evidence require interpretation.
Generally there is agreement on the interpretation of tree rings...one year per ring...usually / not always.
Seems to me 6days that you are even reluctant to accept that tree rings are indicative of anything, but I sense are almost forced to accept that in fact they are because someone could, in theory, drag you, kicking and screaming no doubt, to witness actual undeniable living examples.
 
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