Creation vs. Evolution

[alwight]

I had already done that.

Falling trees can no more produce a bridge any more than chance mutations can produce the human brain.

But if a tree falls across a gap but there is no one around to hear it does it make any sound? :help:

 

[bybee]

'Purpose' presupposes a design. A better way to phrase it would be 'the mutation functions' in a way that increases survival, in the same way that a fallen tree can function as a bridge without any purposing.

Purpose is the mother of invention my friend!

 

[gcthomas]

Purpose is the mother of invention my friend!

Yup. But things can function by chance.

 

[noguru]

'Purpose' presupposes a design. A better way to phrase it would be 'the mutation functions' in a way that increases survival, in the same way that a fallen tree can function as a bridge without any purposing.

How about;

The mutation functions in a way that increases survival, in the same way that a fallen tree can function as a bridge without any initial human purpose for the fallen tree.

That leads me to a question;

If a tree falls across a river and no one is there to use it, does it have any function?

 

[One Eyed Jack]

How about;

The mutation functions in a way that increases survival, in the same way that a fallen tree can function as a bridge without any initial human purpose for the fallen tree.

That leads me to a question;

If a tree falls across a river and no one is there to use it, does it have any function?

Couldn't the animals use it?

 

[Hedshaker]

Purpose is the mother of invention my friend!

I thought necessity was the mother of invention?

Difficult situations inspire ingenious solutions.

 

[bybee]

How about;

The mutation functions in a way that increases survival, in the same way that a fallen tree can function as a bridge without any initial human purpose for the fallen tree.

That leads me to a question;

If a tree falls across a river and no one is there to use it, does it have any function?

Bacteria, viruses, lichens, mosses may put it to use....

 

[One Eyed Jack]

I thought necessity was the mother of invention?

Me too. I wonder where I got that idea?

Schoolhouse Rock - Mother Necessity

 

[noguru]

Bacteria, viruses, lichens, mosses may put it to use....

So then you would say there are a multitude (probably a vast number) of functions/purposes for a tree that just happen to fall across a river? There does not have to be the strict/narrow human concept of design for it to find a purpose?

 

[bybee]

So then you would say there are a multitude (probably a vast number) of functions/purposes for a tree that just happen to fall across a river? There does not have to be the strict/narrow human concept of design for it to find a purpose?

I just can't imagine a dead tree having a purpose.

 

[noguru]

I just can't imagine a dead tree having a purpose.

Really? I'm sorry for you. You listed some purposes/functions earlier, then you claim you can't imagine them?

I'm not sure how that works, but I guess I will have to take your word for it.

 

[6days]

The point is that a bridge is still a bridge whether there was design and intent involved or not.

A fallen tree is not going to going to become a modern 12 lane bridge, with traffic lights. 12 lane bridges require intelligent design.

Life does not come from non life, although atheists believe.
Intelligent designs do not come from non intelligence.
Codes (DNA as an example) always require a code maker.

 

[bybee]

Really? I'm sorry for you. You listed some purposes/functions earlier, then you claim you can't imagine them?

I'm not sure how that works, but I guess I will have to take your word for it.

My friend, a dead tree cannot have a purpose in and of itself, but, there are living organisms which may avail themselves of the dead trees substance.

 

[Tyrathca]

My friend, a dead tree cannot have a purpose in and of itself, but, there are living organisms which may avail themselves of the dead trees substance.

And a mutation does not have a purpose in and of itself but an organism and population will avail themselves of the mutations affects.

 

[6days]

And a mutation does not have a purpose in and of itself but an organism and population will avail themselves of the mutations affects.

Mutations NEVER cause a gain of genetic information. Mutations can't ever in billions of years cause a protozoa to become a proctologist. Most mutations often are close to deleterious (called neutral)...sometimes outright deleterious. Mutations can have a benecial outcome, but often at a cost / loss of genetic info. For example a loss of specificity to a enzyme MAY have some benefit, but it was a loss of genetic info. ToE requires massive gains of information and there is no mechanism that can deliver that.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Surely Dave even you must concede that in a reasonably diverse group of individuals one or two of them would be the better suited for a given situation than the others. Natural selection simply picks the best suited from whatever is available.

Why must you always presume a purpose has to be involved? If the previous generation managed to produce offspring in a given environment but one current individual by chance was slightly better suited than its parents, siblings and cousins, then it would be more likely to successfully produce more offspring with that same beneficial trait than they would.
Whatever the beneficial trait was would be enhanced through NS with each new brood until all the others either acquired the same trait by perhaps interbreeding or they simply perished.

Is this where statistics and ratios are used to obfuscate and argue your personal incredulity Dave?
Maybe only one beneficial mutation or genetic variation out of millions of neutral or harmful ones would be selected for, I don't know, and perhaps all it needs.
All of humanity is genetically supposed to be linked to only one unknown woman, all the others have simply fallen by the wayside, to coin a phrase.

I simply think that the smarter ones had an edge Dave and that they produced more offspring with their "smarter" genes.

Could you give me an example of a change, that you know of, in the evolution of man that made it possible to produce more offspring?

--Dave

 

[bybee]

And a mutation does not have a purpose in and of itself but an organism and population will avail themselves of the mutations affects.

Or not.

 

[bybee]

Really? I'm sorry for you. You listed some purposes/functions earlier, then you claim you can't imagine them?

I'm not sure how that works, but I guess I will have to take your word for it.

Let me clarify. Anything dead no longer has a purpose for itself. But it may be utilized by other living organisms which do have a purpose.

 

[DFT_Dave]

The point is that a bridge is still a bridge whether there was design and intent involved or not.

Not the comparison I made. Taking the definition I used is not the same thing as using another definition. I used the understanding, and pictured it, of a man made bridge.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

'Purpose' presupposes a design. A better way to phrase it would be 'the mutation functions' in a way that increases survival, in the same way that a fallen tree can function as a bridge without any purposing.

Strange indeed how a brain that can make a plan for a purpose is the result of mutations that had no plan for the purpose of making such a brain.

--Dave