Originally posted by Poly
If I'm mistaken about you being a Calvinist then I apologize. I was going by what I read
So you're ok with judging and you're not ok with Calvinism.
I am ok with a judging which is free of hate. A doctor (and we know that Jesus portrayed himself as a doctor) does not yell at his patients when they do something wrong. A doctor tells patiently the fat man or woman that he or she shouldn't eat so much ice-cream and apple pie, otherwise he or she will have a heart attack sooner or later. Does a doctor hate the patient who relapses? Does the doctor hate gluttony ? Does the doctor get all worked up when he sees his patient eating a gorgeous chocolate and vanilla ice-cream at the neighboorhood bakery?
Too bad that somebody so smart in these areas isn't smart enough to see that being a homo is wrong.
Too bad that you aren't smart enough to give me a credible reason for considering homosexuality an abominable sin other than appeal to the authority of two verses in a Jewish legal code written in the fifth century BC and two or three verses in Paul, a man who is not free from error and prejudice.
Homosexuality is widespread in the animal kingdom. So the Paulinian argument that homosexuality is
para phusin (against nature) is simply false.
Apparently God loves diversity.
Are you suggesting that one can't agree with what is scriptural about a doctrine and disagree with what is not? There are lots of doctrines out there. Some are based on scripture. Some only partly based on scripture. The Reformation speaks loudly of works not being a part of salvation. This is scriptural so I have no problem with this. Yes, the Reformation has been linked to Calvinism which I do reject because it is not scriptural.
My dear Virginia, if you ditch predestination, you have to ditch lots of other things too: total depravity, divine omnipotence, sola fide and sola gratia, etc., etc. All these things go together.
Exactly! In light of Romans 12:9,
Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.
In light of Romans 1, 18-20
Do you recognize that God revealed himself to all the pagan nations outside the special revelation to Isreal through Moses and Jesus?
This is what the three verses that precede Paul's condemnation of homosexual
orgies clearly teach. Do you admit that there is such a thing as a cosmic revelation available to all wise men of all times ? In other words, are you willing because of what Paul says in Romans 1 to cast overboard the old wretched sola scriptura spinster and have her devoured by the Red Sea sharks?
I would be a hypocrite if I held people's hand on their way to hell, preaching only "God is love and He loves you just the way you are." It's pretty hateful to not warn those who are about to be destroyed.
You are absolutely right when you tell people: "Look, don't do that. It's wrong." You have a perfect right to say so. You have a perfect right to tell your own little son not to drink vitriol. But you are wrong when you do it with hate and contempt for the people who sin. A doctor who scolds his patients is using a strategy that is not only counterproductive, but also harmful. By your strident denunciations of homosexuality you are hardening homos in their sins while instilling in them a deep hate for religion in general.
So in your search for goodness you are right to be pure like a dove but you err fatally when, instead of being cunning like a snake, you act like an elephant in a China shop.
By the way why don't doctors get very emotional when they find that their patients sin against the rules of healthy living?
Who are you to pick and choose only the verses that are pleasing to you? You can't choose to overlook:
Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.
1Timothy 5:20
Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
And what about you dear? Aren't you picking and choosing?
In fact, to pick and choose is sometimes a sign of intelligence and discernment, for in the Bible not everything applies to everybody. Otherwise why are you not a wandering Fransciscan monk without any property? Isn't it because you decided to discard what Jesus said to the rich man about selling everything to the poor and following him?
And how can you refrain from picking and choosing when you discover that Jesus ascended to heaven in the Galilee according to Matthew and Mark and from Bethany near Jerusalem in "John" and Luke ? Did Jesus bilocate?
I know the verses you have quoted, but first of all you need to prove that Paul intended his hearers to rebuke people who were outside the communities that he had founded. Did Paul want his disciples to go around blaming the pagans for their homosexual and other deviant practices?
Obviously not, that would have landed the fledgling Christian communities into a lot of trouble.
Second, I could show you several verses in Paul which state exactly the contrary of what he says in the two quotes above, namely that Christians should refrain from all judgment.
So instead of playing a kind of Biblical ping-pong game and hurling quotes indiscriminately at my head, please show me how the quotes you have cited harmonize with the numerous passages in the Bible which say unambiguously that we should refrain from judgment under pain of being severely judged ourselves.
It's pretty clear that this is a false. You have simply given it the Jaguar Prince interpretation and we all know that your intepretations are based on what feels good to you. That doesn't cut it. Give God enough respect to search the meaning that He gives scripture.
So are you assuming that you can read God's mind? Prove that your interpretation is the only plausible one.
If Jesus meant that nobody is to judge unless they are perfect, why would He say "then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye"? (Matthew 7:5) It's obvious that we will never be perfect so why would he tell us the particular point and time when this would be ok for us do so? Christ says don't judge hypocritically.
How do you know that it is impossible to be perfect? Is that not a doctrinal remnant of your Calvinistic upbringing? Jesus told us to be perfect like the Father. Would Jesus have commanded us to be perfect if it were impossible?
It is possible to be perfect but you are never going to be perfect unless you stop judging people here and now.
Note that the tendency to judge is considered by Jesus to be a major sin, perhap even the sin par excellence since all other sins in comparison are just "specks". Have you refllected seriously on this little scriptural detail?
I cannot judge you for being a homo if I myself am one as well. I cannot judge you for not accepting Christ if I have not accepted Him. But if those things do not apply to me then it is my responsibility to carry out Ephesians 5:11 and 1Timothy which cannot be done unless one makes a judgment as to who God says should be exposed.
Don't waste your time judging someone who is not your neighbor. Take care of yourself first. Use all your energy trying to apply in your life Jesus' commandment to be perfect and not to judge. If you sincerely try to understand what it means to refrain from all judgment instead of inventing pretexts for not listening to Jesus (for that is what you are doing in the name of common sense), God will enlighten you.
Once you are free from all judgment, God will give you a new wisdom which will enable you to heal people by your judgments instead of murdering them. Maybe you will be telling people the same things that you are telling them now but it will be fundamentally different because you will not be the same person anymore.
You will be another Christ. That is the meaning of the word "Christian".
What makes you think that what Paul says about exposing evil cancels out what Jesus said? Since Jesus didn't have a problem with judging as long as it wasn't done hypocritically, I don't see the conflict with what Paul has to say about evil being exposed. They fit together rather nicely.
What does it mean to judge hypocritically?
It means to judge when one is living in sin. A guilty person cannot judge another guilty person. Only God or a sinless person can be a judge (and the good news is that the father judges nobody. Yes, yes, Jesus said it !)
Now let me ask you:
Are you totally, irrevocably sinless?
No you aren't. In fact, according to your warped theology, it is even impossible to be sinless.
Therefore please be consistent, refrain from judgment.
Let there be the sound of silence. Silence heals. Noise is detrimental to physical and mental health.
Your present ego-ridden judgments are noise.
