Church government is not hierarchical

[brewmama]

The Orthodox Church involves itself in every aspect of your life from birth to death, from sunrise to sunset. It tells you when to fast etc.

Let us take a practical example since you brought up meat and "thin whey".

If the church tells you that Wednesday is a fast, in commemoration of Judas Iscariot. Do you feel obliged to fast every Wednesday?

Since fasting is a spiritual tool that aids us in spiritual growth, yes I would. The Church's rules are given for our benefit, not just some arbitrary authoritarian thing.
I fast on Fridays also. However, it is not a hard and fast rule, and it's not considered a sin not to. Do you see the difference?

 

[brewmama]

HisServant is correct.

I know sacraments are unBiblical from reading the Bible.
I did not know they come from Mithraism.

All religions have rites and rituals which keep you attached to that religion. It is worth examining all one's rites and rituals to ask oneself, "Why do I do this?". For instance when I see a leader, I deliberately walk under it to show I have no superstitious fear. And I do own a black cat.

Wow, more evidence of...well, never mind. Sacraments are all biblical and beneficial for us and holy and God-given, and why anyone would be against them is mystifying to me. I understand why we do them. You are the one who lacks understanding.

 

[Cruciform]

Neither Jesus nor the Apostles advocated sacramentalism in any way shape or form.

Your claim is categorically refuted here. Once again, your vast ignorance of all things Catholic is more than evident.

 

[Cruciform]

HisServant is correct.

Post #143

 

[iouae]

Since fasting is a spiritual tool that aids us in spiritual growth, yes I would. The Church's rules are given for our benefit, not just some arbitrary authoritarian thing.
I fast on Fridays also. However, it is not a hard and fast rule, and it's not considered a sin not to. Do you see the difference?

Brewmama
First I commend your dedication to your religion.
You are fasting (complete or partial I don't know) twice a week.
That is 100 times a year.
And you have seasonal fasts like Lent, and now leading up to Xmas.

Let's add on another 20 days of fasting for a total of 120 days.
Stricter adherents to your church living in monasteries, also fast on the day commemorating angels which I vaguely remember was Monday.
They can end up partially or strictly fasting for half the year.

Tell me what you think of these scriptures which I think have relevance here.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using. ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[iouae]

Wow, more evidence of...well, never mind. Sacraments are all biblical and beneficial for us and holy and God-given, and why anyone would be against them is mystifying to me. I understand why we do them. You are the one who lacks understanding.

If you believe any church member can administer them, then fine.
If you believe only those ordained can administer them, and if you believe not doing them has dire consequences, then not fine.

I believe any believer can baptise a newbie, and you can administer bread and wine which you have blessed, to yourself. Nowhere in the Bible does it say otherwise.

 

[brewmama]

Brewmama
First I commend your dedication to your religion.
You are fasting (complete or partial I don't know) twice a week.
That is 100 times a year.
And you have seasonal fasts like Lent, and now leading up to Xmas.

Let's add on another 20 days of fasting for a total of 120 days.
Stricter adherents to your church living in monasteries, also fast on the day commemorating angels which I vaguely remember was Monday.
They can end up partially or strictly fasting for half the year.

Tell me what you think of these scriptures which I think have relevance here.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using. ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

I would say that you are missing the point again. First, your verses are not referring to fasting. Second, Jesus himself fasted, as did John the Baptist and St. Paul. Third, Jesus himself said his disciples would fast when he was no longer here. Fourth, as I said, it's a spiritual exercise, it tames the passions. It's mentioned in Mt 6 and 17 and Acts 13 and14.

It's odd that you would ignore such specific examples of Biblical fasting and use such an opaque verse as your "proof".

 

[brewmama]

If you believe any church member can administer them, then fine.
If you believe only those ordained can administer them, and if you believe not doing them has dire consequences, then not fine.

I believe any believer can baptise a newbie, and you can administer bread and wine which you have blessed, to yourself. Nowhere in the Bible does it say otherwise.

Where in the Bible does it say it say you can?

 

[HisServant]

Wow, more evidence of...well, never mind. Sacraments are all biblical and beneficial for us and holy and God-given, and why anyone would be against them is mystifying to me. I understand why we do them. You are the one who lacks understanding.

If you think sacriments are biblical... show us.

Cruciforms link addressed the roman catholic churches personal interpretation of communion and didnt touch on sacramentalism at all. Its interpretation is also based on the taurectomy..(flesh and blood of a bull slaughtered as part of a mithraism ritual that actually becomes flesh and blood of their god mithras).. sound familiar?

 

[brewmama]

If you think sacriments are biblical... show us.

Cruciforms link addressed the roman catholic churches personal interpretation of communion and didnt touch on sacramentalism at all. Its interpretation is also based on the taurectomy..(flesh and blood of a bull slaughtered as part of a mithraism ritual that actually becomes flesh and blood of their god mithras).. sound familiar?

Explain it to Jesus since he's the one who said it was his body and blood. That's biblical enough for me. Why not you?

 

[iouae]

Where in the Bible does it say it say you can?

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

You are not suggesting that every time I read "ye" it is addressing the select few, are you.

 

[iouae]

I would say that you are missing the point again. First, your verses are not referring to fasting. Second, Jesus himself fasted, as did John the Baptist and St. Paul. Third, Jesus himself said his disciples would fast when he was no longer here. Fourth, as I said, it's a spiritual exercise, it tames the passions. It's mentioned in Mt 6 and 17 and Acts 13 and14.

It's odd that you would ignore such specific examples of Biblical fasting and use such an opaque verse as your "proof".

I don't think I am missing the point.

Here is the Living Bible translation of Col 2
I don't think fasting tames the passions or makes one a better person.

20 Since you died, as it were, with Christ and this has set you free from following the world’s ideas of how to be saved—by doing good and obeying various rules[a]—why do you keep right on following them anyway, still bound by such rules as 21 not eating, tasting, or even touching certain foods? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings, for food was made to be eaten and used up. 23 These rules may seem good, for rules of this kind require strong devotion and are humiliating and hard on the body, but they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person’s evil thoughts and desires. They only make him proud.

 

[patrick jane]

I don't think I am missing the point.

Here is the Living Bible translation of Col 2
I don't think fasting tames the passions or makes one a better person.

20 Since you died, as it were, with Christ and this has set you free from following the world’s ideas of how to be saved—by doing good and obeying various rules[a]—why do you keep right on following them anyway, still bound by such rules as 21 not eating, tasting, or even touching certain foods? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings, for food was made to be eaten and used up. 23 These rules may seem good, for rules of this kind require strong devotion and are humiliating and hard on the body, but they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person’s evil thoughts and desires. They only make him proud.

Colossians 2:20-21 KJV - Colossians 2:22-23 KJV -

 

[iouae]

Where in the Bible does it say it say you can?

You show me anywhere in 1 Cor 11 quoted below where it says I cannot bless bread and wine and administer these "sacraments" to myself?


23 For this is what the Lord himself has said about his Table, and I have passed it on to you before: That on the night when Judas betrayed him, the Lord Jesus took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks to God for it, he broke it and gave it to his disciples and said, “Take this and eat it. This is my body, which is given[e] for you. Do this to remember me.” 25 In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, “This cup is the new agreement between God and you that has been established and set in motion by my blood. Do this in remembrance of me whenever you drink it.” 26 For every time you eat this bread and drink this cup you are retelling the message of the Lord’s death, that he has died for you. Do this until he comes again.

27 So if anyone eats this bread and drinks from this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, he is guilty of sin against the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 That is why a man should examine himself carefully before eating the bread and drinking from the cup. 29 For if he eats the bread and drinks from the cup unworthily, not thinking about the body of Christ and what it means, he is eating and drinking God’s judgment upon himself; for he is trifling with the death of Christ. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and some have even died.

It seems to say that the final decision to eat or drink depends entirely on the man himself, examining himself/herself.
There is no mention of a minister or a church interposing itself between that choice.

 

[jamie]

No you don't. You've argued against doctrines you don't like that are espoused by the Apostles many times. And make up others that aren't scriptural, such as sola scriptura. Case in point: hierarchy.

Case in point?

But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you, but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. (Matthew 20:26 NKJV)​

 

[iouae]

But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you, but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. (Matthew 20:26 NKJV)​

That is what happens when you mix Roman style Hierarchy with Christ style Church, you get Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Cruciform]

If you think sacriments are biblical... show us.

Already answered (Post #143).

Cruciforms link addressed the Roman Catholic Church's personal interpretation of communion and didnt touch on sacramentalism at all.

The Eucharist is the central and defining sacrament of Christ's Church, and so addresses sacramentalism directly. And I'll take the authoritative interpretations of Christ's one historic Catholic Church over the entirely non-authoritative opinions of your chosen recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sect any day.

Its interpretation is also based on the taurectomy..(flesh and blood of a bull slaughtered as part of a mithraism ritual that actually becomes flesh and blood of their god mithras).. sound familiar?

This is the very same pseudo-argument put forth by atheists to try and reject the Christian faith itself. Nice try, but no. :nono:

See, for example, this and this.


So much for HS's ahistorical and idiotic claims. :yawn:



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[brewmama]

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

You are not suggesting that every time I read "ye" it is addressing the select few, are you.

Well actually, he was speaking to the Apostles, so yes, not you or anyone not selected by the Apostles.

 

[brewmama]

You show me anywhere in 1 Cor 11 quoted below where it says I cannot bless bread and wine and administer these "sacraments" to myself?


23 For this is what the Lord himself has said about his Table, and I have passed it on to you before: That on the night when Judas betrayed him, the Lord Jesus took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks to God for it, he broke it and gave it to his disciples and said, “Take this and eat it. This is my body, which is given[e] for you. Do this to remember me.” 25 In the same way, he took the cup of wine after supper, saying, “This cup is the new agreement between God and you that has been established and set in motion by my blood. Do this in remembrance of me whenever you drink it.” 26 For every time you eat this bread and drink this cup you are retelling the message of the Lord’s death, that he has died for you. Do this until he comes again.

27 So if anyone eats this bread and drinks from this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, he is guilty of sin against the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 That is why a man should examine himself carefully before eating the bread and drinking from the cup. 29 For if he eats the bread and drinks from the cup unworthily, not thinking about the body of Christ and what it means, he is eating and drinking God’s judgment upon himself; for he is trifling with the death of Christ. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and some have even died.

It seems to say that the final decision to eat or drink depends entirely on the man himself, examining himself/herself.
There is no mention of a minister or a church interposing itself between that choice.

No it does not say anyone may. You have made that up, something that is strictly warned about. Tha apostles set up apostolic succession, which you choose to ignore for some reason.

 

[brewmama]

I don't think I am missing the point.

Here is the Living Bible translation of Col 2
I don't think fasting tames the passions or makes one a better person.

20 Since you died, as it were, with Christ and this has set you free from following the world’s ideas of how to be saved—by doing good and obeying various rules[a]—why do you keep right on following them anyway, still bound by such rules as 21 not eating, tasting, or even touching certain foods? 22 Such rules are mere human teachings, for food was made to be eaten and used up. 23 These rules may seem good, for rules of this kind require strong devotion and are humiliating and hard on the body, but they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person’s evil thoughts and desires. They only make him proud.

I know what you "think" this verse means, now how about all the other verses that you persistently ignore, such as "these can only come out with prayer and fasting."