Children of wrath by nature vs Vessels of Wrath

[beloved57]

Eph 2:3

³ Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 9:22

²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now most confound these two, as if theyre referring to the same groups of people.

Those in Eph 2:3 are the Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4

⁴ According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In fact these children of wrath by nature are described as being objects of Gods Rich Mercy and Love while being by nature children of wrath Mercy Eph 2:3-4

⁴ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

⁵ Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So these in Eph 2:3 coincide with what Paul calls vessels of mercy in Rom 9:23-24

²³ And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

²⁴ Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Which of course are a entirely different group from the vessels of wrath mentioned in Rom 9

 

[beloved57]

The difference between the two are the vessels of wrath were made to be and fitted to be the recipients of Gods Wrath for their sins Rom 9, whereas the children of wrath by nature the focus is what they are in and of themselves deserving of, which is Gods Wrath. They are no better naturally than those who were made for wrath. The vessels of wrath will get what they deserve, which is wrath for their sins, but the children of wrath by nature will not get what they deserve, which is Gods Wrath, but shall obtain Mercy

 

[7djengo7]

Eph 2:3

³ Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 9:22

²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now most confound these two, as if theyre referring to the same groups of people.

Those in Eph 2:3 are the Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4

⁴ According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In fact these children of wrath by nature are described as being objects of Gods Rich Mercy and Love while being by nature children of wrath Mercy Eph 2:3-4

⁴ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

⁵ Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So these in Eph 2:3 coincide with what Paul calls vessels of mercy in Rom 9:23-24

²³ And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

²⁴ Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Which of course are a entirely different group from the vessels of wrath mentioned in Rom 9

LOL @ claiming that people are, or can be, simultaneously both children of wrath by nature and vessels of mercy, as you're doing. Oh, and I guess you consider that vessels of mercy are to remain children of wrath by nature for all eternity. If not, then I guess you'll want to tell us when those who are vessels of mercy leave off being children of wrath.

 

[beloved57]

LOL @ claiming that people are, or can be, simultaneously both children of wrath by nature and vessels of mercy, as you're doing. Oh, and I guess you consider that vessels of mercy are to remain children of wrath by nature for all eternity. If not, then I guess you'll want to tell us when those who are vessels of mercy leave off being children of wrath.

Its no claim i provided scripture for it

 

[Nanja]

The difference between the two are the vessels of wrath were made to be and fitted to be the recipients of Gods Wrath for their sins Rom 9, whereas the children of wrath by nature the focus is what they are in and of themselves deserving of, which is Gods Wrath. They are no better naturally than those who were made for wrath. The vessels of wrath will get what they deserve, which is wrath for their sins, but the children of wrath by nature will not get what they deserve, which is Gods Wrath, but shall obtain Mercy

Amen to #1 and #2 !

Even though, by nature, God's Elect Eph. 1:4 were children of wrath even as others, still they were given Mercy Rom. 9:23 even from Everlasting Ps. 103:17, in their Surety Head and Substitute Heb. 7:22 Christ Jesus, in whom they were Chosen of the Father to be In Union with His Son; to be Holy and Without Blame before Him in Love; and were already Saved in the Purpose of God before the World began 2 Tim. 1:9.

Now in sharp contrast, God Created the vessels of wrath Rom. 9:22, the seed / children of the devil, for His Purpose Eph. 3:9-11 to destroy them Mat. 25:41 in the lake of fire / the second death Rev. 21:8.


1 Sam. 2:6, 9

6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. 9 He will keep the feet of his saints [Vessels of Mercy], and the wicked [vessels of wrath] shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail

 

[beloved57]

Amen to #1 and #2 !

Even though, by nature, God's Elect Eph. 1:4 were children of wrath even as others, still they were given Mercy Rom. 9:23 even from Everlasting Ps. 103:17, in their Surety Head and Substitute Heb. 7:22 Christ Jesus, in whom they were Chosen of the Father to be In Union with His Son; to be Holy and Without Blame before Him in Love; and were already Saved in the Purpose of God before the World began 2 Tim. 1:9.

Now in sharp contrast, God Created the vessels of wrath Rom. 9:22, the seed / children of the devil, for His Purpose Eph. 3:9-11 to destroy them Mat. 25:41 in the lake of fire / the second death Rev. 21:8.


1 Sam. 2:6, 9

6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. 9 He will keep the feet of his saints [Vessels of Mercy], and the wicked [vessels of wrath] shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail

Sister you always have a word or words in season !

 

[Nanja]

Sister you always have a word or words in season !

And for that, I thank You !

 

[7djengo7]

Its no claim i provided scripture for it

It's the claim you made, it's falsehood, and you did not get it from the Bible, no sir.

What you showed by quoting Scripture is that you were able to locate and cite, in the pages of Scripture, some passages in which occur the phrases, "children of wrath", "vessels of wrath", "vessels of mercy". So what? Just about anybody could do that.

The unmitigated stupidity of your position: even though Paul says "we...WERE by nature the children of wrath", you claim (on nothing more than the basis of your own, warped, anti-Scriptural imagination, or some other errorist's whom you are merely parroting) that this "we" shall be by nature the children of wrath, in perpetuity, throughout all eternity!! Astoundingly stupid of you!!

It's also hilarious, too, that in accordance with your irrational, anti-Scripture error, you are claiming it would be WRONG to call those who are ultimately thrown into the lake of fire, "by nature the children of wrath"! According to you, the phrase, "by nature the children of wrath" can be--and can ONLY be--used RIGHTLY to refer to those who will live in heaven for eternity. Again, what stupidity you are promulgating!

Amazing Grace: "When we've been there 10,000 years...."

Who is this "we" that have been in heaven 10,000 years? According to beloved57, they are all those who are--not merely were, but are, still, while in heaven--by nature the children of wrath.

"We've no less days to [continue being by nature the children of wrath] than when we'd first begun!"

Here's what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:3 KJV:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.​

Have fun trying to speak rationally--from your twisted, erroneous monstrosity of a doctrine--to the question of who these "others" are!​

Bonus challenge for you to stonewall against: Try to find a Bible passage in which Paul, or any other holy man of God speaking as he was moved by the Holy Ghost, says "we ARE by nature the children of wrath", or anything even remotely resembling that.​

 

[beloved57]

It's the claim you made, it's falsehood, and you did not get it from the Bible, no sir.

What you showed by quoting Scripture is that you were able to locate and cite, in the pages of Scripture, some passages in which occur the phrases, "children of wrath", "vessels of wrath", "vessels of mercy". So what? Just about anybody could do that.

The unmitigated stupidity of your position: even though Paul says "we...WERE by nature the children of wrath", you claim (on nothing more than the basis of your own, warped, anti-Scriptural imagination, or some other errorist's whom you are merely parroting) that this "we" shall be by nature the children of wrath, in perpetuity, throughout all eternity!! Astoundingly stupid of you!!

It's also hilarious, too, that in accordance with your irrational, anti-Scripture error, you are claiming it would be WRONG to call those who are ultimately thrown into the lake of fire, "by nature the children of wrath"! According to you, the phrase, "by nature the children of wrath" can be--and can ONLY be--used RIGHTLY to refer to those who will live in heaven for eternity. Again, what stupidity you are promulgating!

Amazing Grace: "When we've been there 10,000 years...."

Who is this "we" that have been in heaven 10,000 years? According to beloved57, they are all those who are--not merely were, but are, still, while in heaven--by nature the children of wrath.

"We've no less days to [continue being by nature the children of wrath] than when we'd first begun!"

Here's what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:3 KJV:

Have fun trying to speak rationally--from your twisted, erroneous monstrosity of a doctrine--to the question of who these "others" are!​

Bonus challenge for you to stonewall against: Try to find a Bible passage in which Paul, or any other holy man of God speaking as he was moved by the Holy Ghost, says "we ARE by nature the children of wrath", or anything even remotely resembling that.​

I did provide scripture, so thats my claim, testimony

 

[7djengo7]

I did provide scripture, so thats my claim, testimony

I recognize your acceptance of the defeat of the irrational, anti-Scriptural stupidity you've been pushing in this thread.

You're claiming that people whom God hath not appointed to wrath (according to Paul, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV) are, and shall be for all eternity, children of wrath. What stupidity from you! And, you even have the audacity to be claiming that Paul, himself, supports this stupidity of yours in his epistles.

The only thing you did by "providing" Scripture is exacerbate and damn your own stupidity.

 

[beloved57]

I recognize your acceptance of the defeat of the irrational, anti-Scriptural stupidity you've been pushing in this thread.

You're claiming that people whom God hath not appointed to wrath (according to Paul, in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV) are, and shall be for all eternity, children of wrath. What stupidity from you! And, you even have the audacity to be claiming that Paul, himself, supports this stupidity of yours in his epistles.

The only thing you did by "providing" Scripture is exacerbate and damn your own stupidity.

False representation of what i posted!

 

[7djengo7]

False representation of what i posted!

What you just claimed is false. By saying that, you are lying about me, as you know as well as I do.

Notice how you don't even try to defend your stupidity. Why? Because you know, as well as I know, that you have no hope of defending it.

 

[beloved57]

The elect by nature [ as they are naturally born] there is no difference between the elect of God and the non elect who shall die in their sins. Now naturally speaking the Elect with the Non elect deserve Gods Wrath and Eternal condemnation. However since Christs death for the Elect, He being their substitute surety, and saviour redeemer, made a difference, they are not the vessels of wrath who are being fitted for destruction.

 

[Nanja]

The elect by nature [ as they are naturally born] there is no difference between the elect of God and the non elect who shall die in their sins. Now naturally speaking the Elect with the Non elect deserve Gods Wrath and Eternal condemnation. However since Christs death for the Elect, He being their substitute surety, and saviour redeemer, made a difference, they are not the vessels of wrath who are being fitted for destruction.

Exactly Brother ! Christ's Surety death was on behalf of the Elect exclusively, and so they do God's Will perfectly because it's by Christ's Life and Death on their behalf, that they are the Many He made righteous.

Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So even though God's Elect are born into this world as depraved sinners and ungodly, nevertheless they are Loved and Justified; without blame before God: predestinated to be His Children Eph. 1:4-5 : His Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23.

So whether created by Christ to be vessels of mercy or vessels of wrath, they ultimately serve to display His Divine Eternal Purpose Eph. 3:9-11.

Col. 1:16-17

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[beloved57]

Exactly Brother ! Christ's Surety death was on behalf of the Elect exclusively, and so they do God's Will perfectly because it's by Christ's Life and Death on their behalf, that they are the Many He made righteous.

Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So even though God's Elect are born into this world as depraved sinners and ungodly, nevertheless they are Loved and Justified; without blame before God: predestinated to be His Children Eph. 1:4-5 : His Vessels of Mercy Rom. 9:23.

So whether created by Christ to be vessels of mercy or vessels of wrath, they ultimately serve to display His Divine Eternal Purpose Eph. 3:9-11.

Col. 1:16-17

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Copy that Sister !

 

[Nanja]

Copy that Sister !

:up:

 

[thborn]

Eph 2:3

³ Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Rom 9:22

²² What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now most confound these two, as if theyre referring to the same groups of people.

Those in Eph 2:3 are the Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4

⁴ According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

In fact these children of wrath by nature are described as being objects of Gods Rich Mercy and Love while being by nature children of wrath Mercy Eph 2:3-4

⁴ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

⁵ Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So these in Eph 2:3 coincide with what Paul calls vessels of mercy in Rom 9:23-24

²³ And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

²⁴ Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Which of course are a entirely different group from the vessels of wrath mentioned in Rom 9

Sounds like a decent enough explanation to me.

 

[beloved57]

The children of wrath by nature, Eph 2:3 were always at the same time vessels of mercy Rom 9:23, and they were always to hear these words in the finality of things Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

But the vessels of wrath of Rom 9:22, they were always to hear these words in the finality of things Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Nanja]

The children of wrath by nature, Eph 2:3 were always at the same time vessels of mercy Rom 9:23, and they were always to hear these words in the finality of things Matt 25:34

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

But the vessels of wrath of Rom 9:22, they were always to hear these words in the finality of things Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Amen indeed Brother, all Praise and Thanks to God !

 

[beloved57]

In reprobation, the non-elect were predestined to remain in sin, and for their sin foreordained to condemnation and wrath.