Interesting, but Paul's Eph 4;9 point was just "the face of the earth".
check 1 Cor 5:5 that Paul wrote
- Thread starter DAN P
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Then why didn't he say "the face of the earth"?
Why did he say "descended into the lower parts of the earth" instead?
Words have meaning, Hoping. You don't get to just assert that he meant something else because you want it to or because it doesn't comport with your theology.
The lower parts of the earth and the womb are used interchangeably throughout the Bible, as @Derf points out, but Paul isn't talking about the womb here. He's talking about Christ descending into Hell, freeing the captives (the righteous dead who were awaiting the death of the High Priest in their "city of refuge" in Hell (see Numbers 35 for reference)), and then:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
Who knows if they weren't interchangeable expressions back when it was translated?
I agree.
But are you not doing the same thing?
Show another use besides the one Derf points to...(which causes me to ask...who exactly was "formed in hades" as per his citing?)
The day of judgement will be the last day.
Nobody will be resurrected from the dead before that.
Captivity, there, refers to sin.
Thanks be to God.
Then you need to provide the evidence that they were. You're the one making the claim. You need to support it.
I'm not going to make your argument for you.
No.
No one.
You seem to be misunderstanding something:
The terms are used interchangeably, AS FIGURES OF SPEECH, but that doesn't mean that they are the same thing.
For example, Psalm 139 uses "the lower parts of the earth" to refer to the womb, while Psalm 63:9 uses it to refer to the place of the dead, Sheol.
Jesus Himself says "unless one be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," to which Nicodemus replied:
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” - John 3:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John3:4&version=NKJV
I don't disagree.
Never said otherwise.
I said Jesus set the captive righteous dead free from their city of refuge, leading them into heaven. I did not say they were resurrected.
Not quite. It refers to those who were held captive in hell. It's a synecdoche.
Derf
Well-known member
I appreciate your bringing Nicodemus into the conversation, as that was on my mind from my previous post. I am of the opinion that when Nicodemus was questioning whether a man could enter his mother's womb a second time and be born, Jesus replied, "Essentially, yes." And He was using the grave/Sheol=the womb figure of speech equating it to being born again--probably referring to the resurrection.
You've mentioned the death of the high priest=>freeing of the city of refuge thing before, and it is intriguing, but I'm not fully on board with it, because I really think the captivity that was taken captive was "death", not the righteous dead.
Derf
Well-known member
Do we need another use? David's use shows that a small enclosed chamber counts as "lower parts of the earth, which makes a tomb a valid comparison. But Jonah is another.
There we go.
"Tomb".
As hades can be used for the term tomb, figuratively, it doesn't imply that hades is really a place Jesus descended into.
I think we are talking about two different uses of a figurative event that don't really correspond with each other.
"Lower parts of the earth".
Both a place on the earth, but also, figuratively, hades or a womb.
We are mixing our metaphors.
Derf
Well-known member
Actually, not that you mention it, it makes more sense that "death" was led captive, but that doesn't change anything regarding the city of refuge portion.
Derf
Well-known member
The city of refuge image is important, and definitely related to Christ's death. I just don't know if it can be applied to that particular timeframe in that particular way. When do you think Christ led the bodiless spirits to heaven?
At His resurrection, they were raised, and at His ascension, He led them to Heaven.
And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. - Matthew 27:50-53 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew27:50-53&version=NKJV
Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”(Now this, “He ascended” —what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) - Ephesians 4:8-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians4:8-10&version=NKJV
Derf
Well-known member
So if they were bodiless spirits, they stopped being bodiless in the Matthew passage, at what time, before or after Christ's resurrection?
After.
And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. - Colossians 1:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians1:18&version=NKJV
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, - Revelation 1:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation1:5&version=NKJV
Derf
Well-known member
That works, then, with the "first fruits" verse, as long as He was resurrected first. But your quoted verse about first fruits doesn't seem to allow for a permanent resurrection:
From what I'm reading from you, ALL righteous dead from OT times would have been resurrected (graves were opened and bodies arose). Why then wasn't David one of those resurrected at that event? Surely he was in Abraham's Bosom, right? But Peter said David was still dead and buried at Pentecost that year.
Acts 2:29 (KJV) Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.