Cell Trends

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Life From Nonlife Made Simple 03/05/2001
“Missing Links Made Simple” is the voilà! title from an article in today’s Nature, summarizing an experiment announced in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The vexing problem of the origin of proteins, specifically how to get amino acids to link up with peptide bonds, has evaded naturalistic solution for decades. But researchers from Scripps Institute have found that short segments of Transfer RNA (tRNA) assisted by puromycin molecules carrying amino acids can form peptide bonds without the assistance of ribosomes, provided some imidazole is around to help. They claim that this process also encodes some information into the chain: the tRNA bound to the puromycin better when their sequences matched. “The evolution of this control over protein manufacture holds the key to the emergence of the living from the non-living worlds.”
So the vast gulf between life and non-life has been bridged, eh? So spontaneous generation is back, eh? Not so fast. There was a lot of intelligent design in this experiment, but very little intelligence in the conclusions. These experimenters brought together three highly improbable ingredients into close quarters, which would not have occurred naturally in sufficient concentrations to provide a chance for fellowship. They also neglected the destructive effects of UV rays and oxygen, and other nefarious compounds which would act like muggers in the party. And the claim of information is a stretch: sequences that match would lead only to repetitive crystals, not complex aperiodic information that could have any bearing on the formation of functional proteins. This experiment seems like an extrapolation on the old joke about two hungry hoboes, one of which tries to cheer up his buddy by saying, “If we had ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had eggs.”
It is conceivable that if you took apart a complex mechanism like a watch, parts of it would still work. Some of the gears and springs might still move. This is what these experimenters have done: disassembled a tRNA molecule and got parts of it to work. To have any relevance to the origin of life, they need to start with nothing, not something: get a watch to build itself without any springs and gears, and nobody around giving a hoot whether it worked or not. Anything less commits the fault of investigator interference and the fallacy of personification. And remember, until replication is nearly 100% accurate, any progress is lost when the next lightning bolt strikes.
 

Jukia

New member
Ohnos said:
I think he's just posting the articles to raise his post count, because he's really not accomplishing anything with them. I don't think he really believes what he's saying.
From what I have seen he absolutely believes what he is saying. He just does not understand the basic science, or if he does his faith gets in the way. Too bad.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
If-Then Algorithm Found in Brain Wiring 03/08/2001
Scientists at UC San Francisco have found a wiring algorithm for nerve cells in developing embryos. Nerve cells, or axons, use neurotransmitters to guide their growing ends toward their proper connection sites: attractants call out “this way” and repellants say “keep out.” But what if both an attractant and a repellant appear at the same time? They found that the repellant wins the draw, and the repellant receptor then physically binds to the attractant receptor to deactivate it, like tying Ulysses to the mast to keep him from rowing toward the deadly sirens’ tempting song. Click here for the press release with more details.
Update 03/12/2001: Scientific American summarizes a report in the journal Science about how growing tips of nerve cells send signals. Scientists found that they use short bursts of calcium, lasting only 300 milliseconds, to scout out their surroundings as they grow toward their destinations.

Each of your billions of brain cells can make thousands of connections to other brain cells, forming a neural net of an estimated 10 trillion connections. That’s more than all the soldered joints in all the electrical appliances on earth. During development of the embryo, each neuron’s growing tips are guided unerringly to their destinations. If not, the result would be far worse than a bad computer memory chip that makes the software crash: you would be a vegetable or DOA. This discovery reveals just one small aspect of how this marvel of assembly is accomplished. It should make us all stand in awe of the wisdom of our Creator. Think of this the next time you hold a newborn baby in your hands, watching it sense its new environment for the first time.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Jukia said:
From what I have seen he absolutely believes what he is saying. He just does not understand the basic science, or if he does his faith gets in the way. Too bad.
you call the ideas behind these posts simple?
 

Jukia

New member
stipe said:
you call the ideas behind these posts simple?
No, I don't think I said that. Probably rather the opposite. The ideas are complex and require some thought---not just faith.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
absolutely .. but you said bob needed an understanding of basic science ... how will a simple understanding help him if the ideas are complicated?
 

Ohnos

BANNED
Banned
stipe said:
if you dont understand the posts dont accuse others of the same...
I'm in a unique position in this thread--I actually do understand what the posts are saying. But you don't have to have an understanding of the science behind the articles to realize how ridiculous bob's goal is. Basically he is using articles that have absolutely nothing to do with God, to prove that there is a God.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
nothing in science can prove there is a god ... sure as hell makes evolution look stupid though.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Ohnos said:
Basically he is using articles that have absolutely nothing to do with God, to prove that there is a God.

I have no such ambitious goal.

My goal is simply what I stated in my opening posting: to provide support for my assertion that as scientists discover more about cells that more and more levels of subsystems are revealed.

Of course one may draw whatever conclusions one wants about what this means.

Biochemist Claims Ancestor to ATP Enzymes Found 03/09/2001
A Purdue biology professor claims that acetate kinase resembles the structure and function of other metabolizing enzymes in bacteria and archaea, and may be the common ancestor of these enzymes that utilize ATP for energy.
Notice that even though the these enzymes have an outward resemblance (a similar fold), they have entirely different amino acid sequences. In actuality, ATP utilization is an irreducibly complex mechanism in living cells. We have written earlier about the wonder of ATP synthase; no way could something like this just evolve by natural means.

When you learn the art of baloney detecting, it is not hard to find the fallacies in this kind of story. The professor attributes wish fulfillment and cooperation to enzymes and bacteria: this is the fallacy of personification. He claims similarities prove ancestry: this is non sequitur. Then he uses his assumptions of evolution to demonstrate evolution: this is circular reasoning.
 

Johnny

New member
When you learn the art of baloney detecting, it is not hard to find the fallacies in this kind of story. The professor attributes wish fulfillment and cooperation to enzymes and bacteria: this is the fallacy of personification. He claims similarities prove ancestry: this is non sequitur. Then he uses his assumptions of evolution to demonstrate evolution: this is circular reasoning.
What a twisted batch of misappropriated logical fallacies. Similarities are evidence of ancestries--they do not prove it. That is not a non-sequiter. Wish fulfillment and cooperation? And what argument did he build on these which would constitute a logical fallacy? Simply personifying something does not constitute a fallacy, its just convenient or habit. Further, predictions of evolution are not assumptions of evolution.

Professor: "May be common ancestory"
Creationist mischaracterization: "He claims similarities prove ancestry"

This had to have been written by a creationist. Was it Bob or Bob's source?
 

snowy

New member
bob b said:
Since some seem to be confused about how a very good world began to become corrupted, perhaps they need to take the explanation in Genesis more seriously.
What explanation? :confused: Maybe you can help me with grasping the "scientific" and especially the moral perfection of that mythical tale (even though I guess a separate thread would be needed for that). Hmm, historically there have been many who tried to take that tale seriously (well, when they didn't know it wasn't worth it), and it seems to me that the smarter of them came to the logical and moral conclusion that only a malevolent Demiurge could have come up with such a "corrupted" creation.

Really, who "corrupted" the creation in such devious ways? Certainly the original people wouldn't have been able to engineer the deadly viruses and bacteriae.
Just briefly, what would your "explanation" be -- for the "creation" of so many harmful viruses and bacteriae? Is your point that your vengeful god simply designed some "irreducibly complex" ways ;) of torturing his disobedient children ?!

And what's the moral point of having little children dying horribly of various infectious diseases or other intentionally corrupted designs? Oh well, I guess that would just give another meaning to the cute quote: "Let the little children come to Me".
 

Jukia

New member
stipe said:
absolutely .. but you said bob needed an understanding of basic science ... how will a simple understanding help him if the ideas are complicated?
Are you this dense on purpose? It usually helps to have an understanding of the basic subject involved before you can understand complicated issues.
 

SUTG

New member
stipe said:
dont need to.

You really shoud though. It might stop you from saying things like "the process of mutation and natural selection acting to change organisms shoudl be observable given the amount of change that needs to have happened and the time that has been available."
 

SUTG

New member
bob b said:
How do these little blind molecules know how to do these things? Truly amazing.

There is a beach near my house in Point Reyes where the action of the waves arranges the gravel by size over time. There is a gradient of different bands of stone from the finest gravel, to marbles of different sizes, to golf ball sized smooth stones. One of my favorite things to do is to go over there and mess up the beautiful arrangement. Put some big stones in with the small and some small stones in with the big. Then, I wait for the waves to do their work of rearranging the stones. A short time later, the arrangement is back to the same pattern as when I arrived.

How do the blind stones know where to go? Or is it the waves that know where to place them?
 

Jukia

New member
SUTG said:
There is a beach near my house in Point Reyes where the action of the waves arranges the gravel by size over time. There is a gradient of different bands of stone from the finest gravel, to marbles of different sizes, to golf ball sized smooth stones. One of my favorite things to do is to go over there and mess up the beautiful arrangement. Put some big stones in with the small and some small stones in with the big. Then, I wait for the waves to do their work of rearranging the stones. A short time later, the arrangement is back to the same pattern as when I arrived.

How do the blind stones know where to go? Or is it the waves that know where to place them?

Neither, when you are not looking the seagulls put them back where they belong. That, my friend, is intelligent design!
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
what would your "explanation" be -- for the "creation" of so many harmful viruses and bacteriae?

The latest research is showing that 99% of both bacteria and viruses are either harmless to humans or beneficial. And the ones that are harmful are mutants that probably were originally harmless or beneficial.

Better learn some science.

Here's some more help for you.

How Do Cilia Move in Concert? 03/12/2001
Cilia, the microscopic hair-like projections on some single-celled organisms such as Paramecium and in the human body such as the lining of the esophagus and digestive tract, have long puzzled biologists with their ability to beat in synchronized wave patterns. In the March 22 issue of the Biological Proceedings of the Royal Society, two Israeli scientists use 3D modelling to simulate how this motion is achieved and find that the viscosity of the surrounding medium influences the motion.

Right now, cilia are moving in picturesque waves along your throat, sweeping your windpipe clean of contaminants as you breathe. Readers of Michael Behe’s Darwin’s Black Box will remember the cilium as one of his examples of irreducible complexity (structures composed of multiple parts that cannot work unless all the parts are present, therefore could not have evolved by a series of mutations acted on by natural selection). Take a look at this paper to gain an appreciation of the magnitude of the problem. After pages of differential equations and diagrams, the scientists call their work a “simplified model” of the “internal engine.” To work properly, or at all, each cilium engine requires many diverse components, such as dynein and nexin rods and cross-bridges arranged in a structured 9+2 pattern, ATP for energy, the proper membrane voltages and calcium levels, the ability to respond to neighboring cells with the proper timing, and other factors not yet understood. Yet we are asked by the scientific establishment to believe that brainless cells figured out these engineering feats without an Engineer.

Update 03/14/2001: Nature has just published a paper on another of Behe’s examples of irreducibly complex systems: the bacterial flagellum. The flagellum is now seen as a reversible helical propeller that allows the bacterium to switch between running and tumbling modes. The complexity just keeps getting more and more mind-boggling.
 

Jukia

New member
bob b said:
The latest research is showing that 99% of both bacteria and viruses are either harmless to humans or beneficial. And the ones that are harmful are mutants that probably were originally harmless or beneficial.

.
Got a cite for this claim? Thanks.
 

Jukia

New member
bob b said:
I have no such ambitious goal.

My goal is simply what I stated in my opening posting: to provide support for my assertion that as scientists discover more about cells that more and more levels of subsystems are revealed.

Of course one may draw whatever conclusions one wants about what this means.

.
So, I can draw the conclusion that it is all the result of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
 

Ohnos

BANNED
Banned
bob b said:
I have no such ambitious goal.

My goal is simply what I stated in my opening posting: to provide support for my assertion that as scientists discover more about cells that more and more levels of subsystems are revealed.
Don't try to hide your obvious motive for this, you haven't been doing a very good job of it thus far:
The more we learn about life, the more we discover function and design. So-called junk DNA may be the next. God don’t make no junk.
It seems to me that unbelievers enjoy flouting their unbelief.

Since some seem to be confused about how a very good world began to become corrupted, perhaps they need to take the explanation in Genesis more seriously.

But again, I am sure that they will not do this unless or until they are willing to humble themselves and ask for God's forgiveness for their many sins.

As Jesus once said "repent and be saved".
Proteins cannot perform their duties if they are not folded properly. The folding gives the protein chain (a string of amino acids) its three-dimensional structure, which is essential to its function. This kind of intricate molecular origami is accomplished partly by the affinities of parts of the molecule for each other due to the specific order of amino acids (that is why the sequence of amino acids cannot tolerate much error), and partly with the assistance of helper enzymes. But mistakes happen. How does the cell recognize an error? How do brainless, sightless molecules perform first aid? How could a cell survive that didn't have these capabilities from the start? How can evolutionists believe that it could? To all the above, amazing.
 

bob b

Science Lover
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Jukia said:
So, I can draw the conclusion that it is all the result of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Whatever turns you on. ;)


Natural Amplifier Found in Inner Ear 03/27/2001
A paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, summarized here in Scientific American, describes new findings about how ears work. A newly discovered “motor protein” named prestin acts as an amplifier. Found on the tips of the microscopic outer hair cells in the cochlea, it takes the electrical energy converted by the inner hair cells and converts it back into mechanical energy, thus amplifying the sound.
Each of our senses is so amazing and complex, you have to just gasp the more you learn about them. The pressure waves in the air that make up sound can be as low as 2 x 10-5 N/m2, yet the sensitivity of the eardrum, the ossicles, and the cochlea to these whispers of sound is astounding – the ear can handle intensities of a million million to one. The eardrum’s microscopic vibrations are amplified by the bones of the middle ear twentyfold as they transmit from air to fluid in the inner ear, where further amplification takes place. This article provides just one more detail on the process. Like all other proteins, prestin is made up of hundreds of amino acids, all left-handed, that are arranged in a precise sequence to allow it to perform its job as an amplifier. God has given you a high-precision, advanced-technology stereo sound system in your head! Its specifications surpass anything man has ever made. Even if yours isn’t working properly at this time, you have backup senses, no less marvelous, to keep you in touch with your surroundings. Enjoy!
Recommended reading: The Wonder of Man, by Dr. Werner Gitt (CLV, Germany, 1999).
 
Top