Can the Christians here accept the Biblical fact that God is one?

[Elia]

OK - my bad.

I didn't realize I was dealing with a willfully unrepentant sinner who rejects the gospel message.

Have fun in hell!

Bs'd

You have fun burning in the Muslim hell.


Eliyahu

 

[Lighthouse]

[Jesus]“I and My Father are one.”[/Jesus]
-Jesus
John 10:30

I believe it.

 

[Elia]

[Jesus]“I and My Father are one.”[/Jesus]
-Jesus
John 10:30

I believe it.

Bs'd

Only people who cannot count to two believe something like that.


Eliyahu

 

[Jacob]

Bs'd

Only people who cannot count to two believe something like that.


Eliyahu

Jesus said "the Father is greater than I".

Does one mean only?

In other words, should different monotheisms be debated, or is this one meaning only too simple?

Can one also mean agreed? For example, if two people are agreed, though they are still two, they are one in their agreement.

Also, the two shall become one flesh.

 

[Elia]

Jesus said "the Father is greater than I".

Does one mean only?

"One" does not mean "only", it means ONE.

Is that really so hard to understand??

In other words, should different monotheisms be debated, or is this one meaning only too simple?

Can one also mean agreed? For example, if two people are agreed, though they are still two, they are one in their agreement.

Amazing how people are trying to turn one into three.

Also, the two shall become one flesh.

"And they shall be one flesh" ..... In the Hebrew: "wehayu levasar echad" ..... This text is claimed by Christianity to prove that the word 'echad' can point to, or be, a 'composite unity', one being made up of more than one.

'Echad', one, can point to a composite unity. Of course. One can also point to a million: One million houses. Here one points to a million, but one is still one. We have here one million, and not a million millions. The fact that one points to something else does not change the meaning of one. One is one, and one stays one.

The claim that 'echad', one, can be a composite unity, with as proof the above verse, is simply wrong. In the above verse the flesh, made up of two people, is the composite unity, and not the 'echad', the one. Compare this to the following: One group of people. Here the group is the composite unity, and not the word one. We don't have here a composite unity of composite unities, but we have here one composite unity (the group of people). One is one and one stays one.

And last but not least; what Christianity does here, is comparing apples to steaks. The verse 'they will be one flesh' cannot be compared to 'God is one'. In the first verse the one is a number, telling us that there will be only one flesh. But in the second verse the one is not a number telling us that there is one God, here the one is an adjective, telling us that God IS one. (and not three) Here the one describes the essence of God, it doesn't give us the amount of Gods. Therefore you can not draw a conclusion from the first verse and apply it to the other.

And of course, Christianity must not forget that they not only have the battle with the Hebrew word 'echad', but also with the Greek word 'eis', also meaning one. In Mark 12:28-34 Jesus has a discussion with a scribe. The scribe asks Jesus what is the first (that is here 'most important', not first in order, because many commandments were given earlier) commandment, and Jesus answers: "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Here Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:4. That is in the Greek: 'Kurios' (Lord) 'eis' (one) 'estin' (is). When he said this to the scribe the scribe answers him: "You are right teacher; you have truly said that he is one (eis), and there is no other then he." Upon this answers Jesus: "You are not far from the kingdom of God." So basically everybody agrees that God is one, except for the Christians. Therefore; the Christians must not only twist, deform, and corrupt the meaning of 'echad', meaning one, into three, but also the Greek word 'eis'. The question is of course: How often can you pull stunts like that, and still have some credibility left?



For Christianity it is literally a matter of life and death to obscure the fact that God is one, because when God is one, then He is not three, and then the trinity goes out the window and the Christians are exposed as the idol worshippers they are. Therefore also here many Bible translations are corrupted. This is the answer of the scribe to Jesus: “You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other then he." The scribe says: “HE IS ONE”. He does not say that there is one God, he says: “He (referring to God) IS ONE, and there is no other then he.” Take good notice that the scribe does not use the word “God”, the scribe refers to God with the word “He”. The word “God” does not appear in the answer of the scribe. But look now at some translations:

All versions of the King James: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (why else “King James ONLY!)

Youngs literal translation: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He; Youngs literal translation is not so literal here…

Worldwide English: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;

Gone is the fact that God is one, replaced by the fact that there is one God. Christianity can live with one God. One God who is three that is: God the Father, god the son, and god the holy ghost.

Christianity can’t live with one God who is one, like the Bible teaches. Therefore the translations are corrupted, in order to cover up the fact that God is one.

But honour to whom honour is due, there are modern day Christian translations who translate this in the right way:

New International Version: "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.” The word “God” should have been “He”, but the message is correct.

New American Standard Bible: The scribe said to Him, ""Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that he is one, and there is no one else beside him.

Revised Standard Version: And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Darby translation: And the scribe said to him, Right, teacher; thou hast spoken according to [the] truth. For he is one, and there is none other besides him;


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deuteronomy 6:4



Eliyahu light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

 

[Dena]

"One" does not mean "only", it means ONE.

Is that really so hard to understand??

For Christians? Generally, yes it is. But you didn't really think you'd just show up here and change their mind? They are pretty set in their ways.

 

[Jacob]

"One" does not mean "only", it means ONE.

Is that really so hard to understand??

I'm thinking in the sense that "only" is singular... that there aren't any other gods.

The Trinity wasn't even invented yet, so this wasn't then a refutation of it.

Amazing how people are trying to turn one into three.

"And they shall be one flesh" ..... In the Hebrew: "wehayu levasar echad" ..... This text is claimed by Christianity to prove that the word 'echad' can point to, or be, a 'composite unity', one being made up of more than one.

'Echad', one, can point to a composite unity. Of course. One can also point to a million: One million houses. Here one points to a million, but one is still one. We have here one million, and not a million millions. The fact that one points to something else does not change the meaning of one. One is one, and one stays one.

The claim that 'echad', one, can be a composite unity, with as proof the above verse, is simply wrong.

I have simply shown that there is no problem with Jesus being in agreement with the Father.

In the above verse the flesh, made up of two people, is the composite unity, and not the 'echad', the one. Compare this to the following: One group of people. Here the group is the composite unity, and not the word one. We don't have here a composite unity of composite unities, but we have here one composite unity (the group of people). One is one and one stays one.

And last but not least; what Christianity does here, is comparing apples to steaks. The verse 'they will be one flesh' cannot be compared to 'God is one'. In the first verse the one is a number, telling us that there will be only one flesh. But in the second verse the one is not a number telling us that there is one God, here the one is an adjective, telling us that God IS one. (and not three)

I've never claimed that God is three.

Here the one describes the essence of God, it doesn't give us the amount of Gods. Therefore you can not draw a conclusion from the first verse and apply it to the other.

And of course, Christianity must not forget that they not only have the battle with the Hebrew word 'echad', but also with the Greek word 'eis', also meaning one. In Mark 12:28-34 Jesus has a discussion with a scribe. The scribe asks Jesus what is the first (that is here 'most important', not first in order, because many commandments were given earlier) commandment, and Jesus answers: "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one." Here Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:4. That is in the Greek: 'Kurios' (Lord) 'eis' (one) 'estin' (is). When he said this to the scribe the scribe answers him: "You are right teacher; you have truly said that he is one (eis), and there is no other then he." Upon this answers Jesus: "You are not far from the kingdom of God." So basically everybody agrees that God is one, except for the Christians.

I believe God is one, and I'm a Christian.

Therefore; the Christians must not only twist, deform, and corrupt the meaning of 'echad', meaning one, into three, but also the Greek word 'eis'. The question is of course: How often can you pull stunts like that, and still have some credibility left?

For Christianity it is literally a matter of life and death to obscure the fact that God is one, because when God is one, then He is not three, and then the trinity goes out the window and the Christians are exposed as the idol worshippers they are. Therefore also here many Bible translations are corrupted. This is the answer of the scribe to Jesus: “You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other then he." The scribe says: “HE IS ONE”. He does not say that there is one God, he says: “He (referring to God) IS ONE, and there is no other then he.”

Many take this to mean monotheism. But I learned this in philosophy and I don't put my stake in philosophy. Monotheism describes God a particular way... but does it take away from the statement that God is one (and there is none else, no other)?

Take good notice that the scribe does not use the word “God”, the scribe refers to God with the word “He”. The word “God” does not appear in the answer of the scribe. But look now at some translations:

All versions of the King James: And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: (why else “King James ONLY!)

Youngs literal translation: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He; Youngs literal translation is not so literal here…

Worldwide English: And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;

Gone is the fact that God is one, replaced by the fact that there is one God. Christianity can live with one God. One God who is three that is: God the Father, god the son, and god the holy ghost.

Christianity can’t live with one God who is one

My question about monotheism is not a refutation that God is one. It is a question of if we mean there is only one God by it, or if we don't know what it means but we say it anyway.

, like the Bible teaches. Therefore the translations are corrupted, in order to cover up the fact that God is one.

But honour to whom honour is due, there are modern day Christian translations who translate this in the right way:

New International Version: "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.” The word “God” should have been “He”, but the message is correct.

New American Standard Bible: The scribe said to Him, ""Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that he is one, and there is no one else beside him.

Revised Standard Version: And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Darby translation: And the scribe said to him, Right, teacher; thou hast spoken according to [the] truth. For he is one, and there is none other besides him;


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deuteronomy 6:4



Eliyahu light unto the nations


"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

This message is sent to you from Mount Zion, Jerusalem, Israel.

"From Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Y-H-W-H from Jerusalem." Isaiah 2:3, Micah 4:2

Here is the Greek text for the KJV:

And g2532 καί kai

the scribe g1122 γραμματεύς grammateus

said g2036 εἶπον eipon

unto him, g846 αὐτός autos

Well, g2573 καλῶς kalōs

Master, g1320 διδάσκαλος didaskalos

thou hast said g2036 εἶπον eipon

the g1909 ἐπί epi

truth: g225 ἀλήθεια alētheia

for g3754 ὅτι hoti

there is g2076 ἐστί esti

one g1520 εἷς heis

God; g2316 θεός theos

and g2532 καί kai

there is g2076 ἐστί esti

none g3756 οὐ ou

other g243 ἄλλος allos

but g4133 πλήν plēn

he: g846 αὐτός autos



Here is the Greek for the New American Standard:

The scribe g1122 γραμματεύς grammateus

said g3004 λέγω legō

to Him, g846 αὐτός autos

"Right, g2573 καλῶς kalōs

Teacher; g1320 διδάσκαλος didaskalos

You have truly g1909 ἐπί epi

g225 ἀλήθεια alētheia

stated g3004 λέγω legō

that g3754 ὅτι hoti

HE IS g1510 εἰμί eimi

ONE, g1520 εἷς heis

AND g2532 καί kai

THERE IS g1510 εἰμί eimi

NO g3756 οὐ ou

ONE ELSE g243 ἄλλος allos

BESIDES g4133 πλήν plēn

HIM; g846 αὐτός autos

 

[Elia]

For Christians? Generally, yes it is. But you didn't really think you'd just show up here and change their mind? They are pretty set in their ways.

Bs'd

Isn't it amazing that, when it comes to religion, Christians suddenly cannot count to three anymore?


Eliyahu

 

[Elia]

I'm thinking in the sense that "only" is singular... that there aren't any other gods.

Bs'd

That is not what the shma is saying. We have many other verses for that one, but the shma just doesn't say that.

What the shma says is not that there is one God, what it says is that God IS one.
That's something different.

The Trinity wasn't even invented yet, so this wasn't then a refutation of it.

God had foresight about what a big chunk of the world population would believe, and inserted already the antidote in Scripture.

I have simply shown that there is no problem with Jesus being in agreement with the Father.

No problem, I also agree with Him.

I've never claimed that God is three.I believe God is one, and I'm a Christian.Many take this to mean monotheism. But I learned this in philosophy and I don't put my stake in philosophy. Monotheism describes God a particular way... but does it take away from the statement that God is one (and there is none else, no other)?My question about monotheism is not a refutation that God is one. It is a question of if we mean there is only one God by it, or if we don't know what it means but we say it anyway.Here is the Greek text for the KJV:

And g2532 καί kai

the scribe g1122 γραμματεύς grammateus

said g2036 εἶπον eipon

unto him, g846 αὐτός autos

Well, g2573 καλῶς kalōs

Master, g1320 διδάσκαλος didaskalos

thou hast said g2036 εἶπον eipon

the g1909 ἐπί epi

truth: g225 ἀλήθεια alētheia

for g3754 ὅτι hoti

there is g2076 ἐστί esti

one g1520 εἷς heis

God; g2316 θεός theos

and g2532 καί kai

there is g2076 ἐστί esti

none g3756 οὐ ou

other g243 ἄλλος allos

but g4133 πλήν plēn

he: g846 αὐτός autos

Your KJC Greek text is wrong. Check it out here: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mar12.pdf

Here is the Greek for the New American Standard:

The scribe g1122 γραμματεύς grammateus

said g3004 λέγω legō

to Him, g846 αὐτός autos

"Right, g2573 καλῶς kalōs

Teacher; g1320 διδάσκαλος didaskalos

You have truly g1909 ἐπί epi

g225 ἀλήθεια alētheia

stated g3004 λέγω legō

that g3754 ὅτι hoti

HE IS g1510 εἰμί eimi

ONE, g1520 εἷς heis

AND g2532 καί kai

THERE IS g1510 εἰμί eimi

NO g3756 οὐ ou

ONE ELSE g243 ἄλλος allos

BESIDES g4133 πλήν plēn

HIM; g846 αὐτός autos

Looks to me they say the same, even tough with different words.

It also looks to me that you are using neither the textus receptus, or the Westcott and Hort, or the Nestle text.

Anyway, the message is clear: God is ONE.

Edit: Now I see what you mean. De TR has the word "God" in the answer of the scribe, and the W&H and the Nestle not.





Eliyahu

 

[Elia]

For Christians? Generally, yes it is. But you didn't really think you'd just show up here and change their mind? They are pretty set in their ways.

Bs'd

Unless they are total idiots, which I don't think, they should be able to see that they are terribly wrong.



Eliyahu

 

[Jacob]

Bs'd

That is not what the shma is saying. We have many other verses for that one, but the shma just doesn't say that.

What the shma says is not that there is one God, what it says is that God IS one.

I know, but how is that different from saying there is one God. God is not two or three, but we also know God is not a number, so it means something.

That's something different.

God had foresight about what a big chunk of the world population would believe, and inserted already the antidote in Scripture.

You are saying the shma is reactionary, and I don't think we need to be defensive about it. Though people may use it as a defense for their beliefs...

No problem, I also agree with Him.

Your KJC Greek text is wrong. Check it out here: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mar12.pdf

Your
Greek says,

"qeos
theos
G2316
n_ Nom Sg m
God",

does it not?

Looks to me they say the same, even tough with different words.

It also looks to me that you are using neither the textus receptus, or the Westcott and Hort, or the Nestle text.

Anyway, the message is clear: God is ONE.

Edit: Now I see what you mean. De TR has the word "God" in the answer of the scribe, and the W&H and the Nestle not.

Eliyahu

I'm not sure on the names of the texts. My understanding was simply that there are different Greek texts/manuscripts used for these different translations. NAS is a later translation, and reflects a find, or the presence of, of different manuscripts from what the KJV used.

 

[Lighthouse]

Bs'd

Only people who cannot count to two believe something like that.


Eliyahu

Solve for n

1x1x1=n

 

[JoeyArnold]

God is one. God has three job titles.

 

[YahuShuan]

Bs'd

Unless they are total idiots, which I don't think, they should be able to see that they are terribly wrong.



Eliyahu

Well, when you can teach them words like "not", or "forever", or "keep", "guard", "obey", or NAME, and "NO OTHER MIGHTY ONES", "before My Face" or, "not even utter them out of your mouths"...you might begin to make some headway. But of course, you are as wrong as they are so don't expect much. Jews that are not Jews, and not Jews who are Jews...get grafted into one tree or you both are gonna get reamed with "stripes". The Messiah came Jew who is not. He fulfilled the Spring feasts and Torah, when He returns He will fulfill the Fall Feasts, and once again, Torah. This time though He won't be riding on a donkey because of the unworthiness of Israel. Do what your Scriptures say "look up and say what have I done", you with a beam stuck in your eyes.

 

[Elia]

Solve for n

1x1x1=n

Bs'd

So you think that 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

Well, we all make mistakes in life. Happens to the best of us. Not everybody is comfortable with higher mathematics.
But I'll explain this to you.

When you have three pieces of fruit, which are all apples, than you have 1 apple + 1 apple + 1apple = 3 apples.

Then you do not have 1 apple x 1 apple x 1 apple = 1 apple, but then you really have THREE apples.

Even so with gods.

When you have three persons who are all divine, then you have 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods.

Then you do not have 1 god x 1 god x 1 god = 1 god, but then you really have THREE gods.

Got it?


Eliyahu

 

[Jacob]

Then you do not have 1 apple x 1 apple x 1 apple = 1 apple,

Actually, that would be 1 apple^3. The unit is cubed or to the third power.

 

[Elia]

Actually, that would be 1 apple^3. The unit is cubed or to the third power.

Bs'd

I see you didn't get it.

Again:

So you think that 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

Well, we all make mistakes in life. Happens to the best of us. Not everybody is comfortable with higher mathematics.
But I'll explain this to you.

When you have three pieces of fruit, which are all apples, than you have 1 apple + 1 apple + 1apple = 3 apples.

Then you do not have 1 apple x 1 apple x 1 apple = 1 apple, but then you really have THREE apples.

Even so with gods.

When you have three persons who are all divine, then you have 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods.

Then you do not have 1 god x 1 god x 1 god = 1 god, but then you really have THREE gods.

Got it now?


Eliyahu

 

[Jacob]

Bs'd

I see you didn't get it.

Again:

So you think that 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

It does.

Well, we all make mistakes in life. Happens to the best of us. Not everybody is comfortable with higher mathematics.
But I'll explain this to you.

When you have three pieces of fruit, which are all apples, than you have 1 apple + 1 apple + 1apple = 3 apples.

This is true. Apple plus apple leaves units apple.

Then you do not have 1 apple x 1 apple x 1 apple = 1 apple, but then you really have THREE apples.

This is incorrect. Apple times apple is apple squared. Apple times apple squared is apple cubed.

Even so with gods.

When you have three persons who are all divine, then you have 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods.

It would be 3 gods, yes.

Then you do not have 1 god x 1 god x 1 god = 1 god, but then you really have THREE gods.

I see what you are saying, but 1 god x 1 god x 1 god is mathematically 1 god cubed.

Got it now?

Eliyahu

I got it the first time. Remember, I'm not Trinitarian. But I have taken math and science courses.

 

[Elia]

It does.This is true. Apple plus apple leaves units apple.This is incorrect. Apple times apple is apple squared. Apple times apple squared is apple cubed.It would be 3 gods, yes.I see what you are saying, but 1 god x 1 god x 1 god is mathematically 1 god cubed.I got it the first time. Remember, I'm not Trinitarian. But I have taken math and science courses.

Bs'd

Well you got it.

It is just mind boggling that I have to explain this to Christians.

Amazing how, when it comes to religion, they suddenly cannot count to three anymore. :mmph:


Eliyahu

 

[Jacob]

Bs'd

Well you got it.

It is just mind boggling that I have to explain this to Christians.

Amazing how, when it comes to religion, they suddenly cannot count to three anymore. :mmph:

Eliyahu

I believe Jesus to be the Son of the one true God.