God's Truth
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Could you state it plainly in one sentence in a more obvious way? What do the calendars mean to you in one sentence.
Can someone answer this?
- Thread starter WatchmanOnTheWall
- Start date
Could you state it plainly in one sentence in a more obvious way? What do the calendars mean to you in one sentence.
God's Truth
New member
What does it matter? You have not made your point until you show how what you say matters.
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WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
As said the Romans did NOT make sure that the new 7 day week of the new Julian calendar that we use today was matched to the Jewish 7 day week used by the Jews in Israel.
Here watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sUyZpM5xls
God's Truth
New member
So what?
Jesus is our Sabbath Rest.
Observing special days mean nothing.
You proved that with saying the days people were observing are wrong.
Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial works.
We don't observe special days anymore, we observe Jesus all day every day when we are put in him.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
I agree with what you say there, but that's not the issue.
God's Truth
New member
So again, what is the point then?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
it's okay you don't and won't get it.
God's Truth
New member
You don't know why it matters, or you are keeping it a secret?
You already denied the most important point that it proves special days mean nothing since Jesus.
So you can't give your point only that it happened. Is that it? Yes? Then say so. You have a high IQ? You can't communicate your point so what does it matter how high your IQ is? Then you try to put down mine? That is pretty dumb.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
There's no point, people here won't look at the evidence. I've moved on.
csuguy
Well-known member
If the difference between the traditional Jewish Calendar and modern calendar were far enough off, it could potentially introduce errors into our understanding of when such and such events occurred. However, this isn't a new topic by any means; scholars have been looking and debating the dates of important historical events for a long long time.
Now that I took the time to read through some of this thread, I'm a tad disappointed that WatchingOnTheWall never bothered to state why he felt this was an important topic. Perhaps it wasn't about the importance of the topic, but only a desire for stimulating conversation. I myself have been studying up on Prime Number Theory recently and trying to tackle problems like developing an algorithm that can directly calculate all of the prime numbers in order.
WatchingOnTheWall did relate this calendar issue to the Sabbath. How do we know that our Sabbath aligns with the historic Jewish Sabbath? An interesting question. However, not one that is of great theological importance since the day of the week on which we worship isn't in of itself important.
I suppose we'll never know
Now that I took the time to read through some of this thread, I'm a tad disappointed that WatchingOnTheWall never bothered to state why he felt this was an important topic. Perhaps it wasn't about the importance of the topic, but only a desire for stimulating conversation. I myself have been studying up on Prime Number Theory recently and trying to tackle problems like developing an algorithm that can directly calculate all of the prime numbers in order.
WatchingOnTheWall did relate this calendar issue to the Sabbath. How do we know that our Sabbath aligns with the historic Jewish Sabbath? An interesting question. However, not one that is of great theological importance since the day of the week on which we worship isn't in of itself important.
I suppose we'll never know
Has the Jewish Sabbath keeping been broken since Jesus?
csuguy
Well-known member
Excellent point Jamie. It is reasonable to assume that, as a people, Jews have continuously observed the Sabbath since the time of Jesus (and before). As such, it is reasonable to assume that the Sabbath maintained by Jews today is consistent with what was observed then. You would certainly require some kind of substantial evidence to refute this (example: a major split in agreement among Jewish sects as to which day the Sabbath is).
Christians have such a divide, but we know historically that the church intentionally chose to deviate away from the Jewish Calendar in the 4th century. For them, it was not the day of the Sabbath that was in question, but rather that of Easter. It is this historic decision in the 4th century that causes division among Christian sects today - some arguing that we should go back to the Jewish Calendar.
Of course, at the end of the day the kingdom is not about what day you worship on or the food you eat.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Yes, that's my whole point. We are breaking the 4th commandment almost constantly but as cguguy says 'isn't in of itself important.' However, although we may be saved by grace it doesn't mean we can go around murdering people willy-nilly, and the 4th command is supposed to be more important than the 6th. Jesus kept all the commandments and we are supposed to at least try and follow His lead. So...
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WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
I'm pleased with most of what you are saying, you have taken the time to read the thread and think about the topic. However, when you say: 'It is reasonable to assume that, as a people, Jews have continuously observed the Sabbath since the time of Jesus (and before). As such, it is reasonable to assume that the Sabbath maintained by Jews today is consistent with what was observed then.'
This is exactly what my point is. It is not reasonable to assume this because although you say: 'You would certainly require some kind of substantial evidence to refute this (example: a major split in agreement among Jewish sects as to which day the Sabbath is).' Because there actually is proof of both of these:
Firstly there is a Jewish sect called the Karaites. In the year 2000, a Jewish American called Nehemia Gordon began to coordinate Aviv barley searches and new crescent moon sightings from Jerusalem. He is now the co-founder of the World Karaite Movement, a Karaite revival group in Israel. Karaites believe that the divine commandments handed down to Moses by God were recorded in the Torah, and therefore do not accept the written collections of the oral traditions in the Jewish Midrash or Talmud Rabbinical writings. Some Christians have recognised the importance of his work in relation to the re-establishment of God’s Calendar in the land of Israel, and how it connects with end time prophecy.
And secondly the proof, as I have been trying to convey, exists in the Bible itself and is spread throughout the new and old testaments. But because it is not understandable from a surface reading it is missed by 99%+ of readers. That is why is it takes patients and careful study to understand it and is why I am having a hard time in conveying it. (I believe this may have been because the Israelites and Jews were so used to their calendar that it was not thought nessacary to give a detail description the their calendar in the book that is about man's relationship with God and did not foresee a time when there calendar would ever be replaced. However the calendar is there, it just takes time and patience to see it).
Now you sound like a reasonable and intelligent person to me and have somewhat rekindled my dying hopes in getting someone here to understand it. I wonder if you will? So with that in mind I will post 5 of what I believe are the most helpful links in order for you to either study or reject out of hand like so many other ingrates here, (I say laughing to myself in a slightly mad way):
Text:
https://guidetothebible.wordpress.com/sabbath-isnt-on-sun-or-sat/
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/sabtosat.htm
Video clips:
The Creator's Calendar
9 min long (or faster with the high speed setting):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzFGEfgP_8
15 mins (or faster with the high speed setting):
International Date Line Change: The Sabbath Unchanged by Worlds Last Chance Ministries?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sUyZpM5xls
79 min (or faster with the high speed setting):
Robert-Aaron Richmond explains from scripture how God’s Calendar works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=wJq8tKvnemU
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God's Truth
New member
What is your point? You should state what your point is.
God's Truth
New member
If the difference between the traditional Jewish Calendar and modern calendar were far enough off, it could potentially introduce errors into our understanding of when such and such events occurred. However, this isn't a new topic by any means; scholars have been looking and debating the dates of important historical events for a long long time.
Now that I took the time to read through some of this thread, I'm a tad disappointed that WatchingOnTheWall never bothered to state why he felt this was an important topic. Perhaps it wasn't about the importance of the topic, but only a desire for stimulating conversation. I myself have been studying up on Prime Number Theory recently and trying to tackle problems like developing an algorithm that can directly calculate all of the prime numbers in order.
WatchingOnTheWall did relate this calendar issue to the Sabbath. How do we know that our Sabbath aligns with the historic Jewish Sabbath? An interesting question. However, not one that is of great theological importance since the day of the week on which we worship isn't in of itself important.
I suppose we'll never know
Exactly; and, the observance of days is worthless when it comes to salvation, since special days are about Jesus, and, we are to worship Jesus all day every day.
God's Truth
New member
The Jews observed the correct Sabbath Day as instructed by Moses.
God's Truth
New member
Moses taught the people the right day to worship.
Anyone studying and making an issue out of a mere day is missing the point about Jesus being the Sabbath Rest.
You are putting down Moses as one who taught some kind of falseness, and you are putting down the people who obeyed, and, you are going against the fact that special days are about Jesus and not about a Saturday or a Sunday.
The kingdom is about being of the same Spirit as Jesus who is unified with our Father.
Father said not to eat certain things. We either comply with his instructions or we don't.
We are rewarded a place in the kingdom according to our compliance.
The Father said to remember his designated day of rest. We either do or we don't.
Our performance report reflects our words and actions.
csuguy
Well-known member
I would not call a small, young modern sect that is only 17 years old a major divide in the Jewish Tradition. That would be like saying that with the introduction of Mormonism in the 19th century, there is a major divide in the Christian Tradition as to whether there is only one God or many gods. Even approaching 200 years old now, Mormonism cannot outweigh 2000 years of traditional Christianity. (Not to say there haven't been other sects throughout history that have attempted to incorporate the God of Abraham into a larger pantheon, for surely there have been - though they are all different.)
That doesn't mean this Nehemia Gordon is necessarily wrong, of course. Tradition preserves truth, but also error should it creep in. Tradition is not infallible. I've got my own share of traditions that I don't agree with that are commonly held by Christians.
Nevertheless, the point remains that some major evidence is necessary to show a break in the Jewish Observance of the Sabbath. While you can use differences between the modern calendar and Jewish calendar to demonstrate differences in terms of the calculation of month year and numerical day of the month, the same thing cannot be said for determining which day of the week it is. As far as I am aware, 7 days in either the modern or the Jewish calendar are the same thing. So long as every seven days they observed the sabbath, then there is no logical point at which Jewish Tradition could have deviated from the proper Sabbath.
Of course, if your concern is not with whether Jews observe the Sabbath on the proper day of the week, but other numerical information like the year, month, etc. Then you can make more of a case. Again, the calculation of Easter was one example where the early Christians felt that the Jewish Tradition was incorrect in its calculations of when to observe this each year.
Perhaps, perhaps not. You would need to be able to present and defend arguments to this effect (in your own words, not by giving me a bunch of random internet links - an internet page isn't able to discuss and reason). If you are willing to put in this effort I and others will reciprocate.
Referencing materials is fine, but they should be used to substantiate particular claims - not take the place of your own arguments. I've done the link-war style of debating in the past and I don't find it to be very informative to anyone involved. In cases like this, you are asking me to devote a lot of time to studying up on your resources before you've even presented any arguments or explained what is so important about the differences between these calendars.
I love theology and will put forth every effort to studying an issue that I think is important or highly interesting. Currently I would consider this discussion a minor curiosity without any real importance in the end. I am more than willing to reconsider if you can provide appropriate arguments that can establish the importance of this topic. However, if you are not willing to put forth even this much effort, then you surely can't expect me or others to spend hours reading/watching your materials.