Can sin be excusable?

[Lighthouse]

Perhaps in the depths of Africa, where next to nothing that grows can be found and the only food is in the hands of the very rich?

Or in a city during a famine?

Are there no animals to kill and eat?

Does this mean that good deeds are pointless, if one's fate hinges on whether at the last you accept redemption? (sorry if I'm being obtuse)

They're not pointless, but they don't save you. It's all about grace.

 

[asstpastor]

bravo!

bravo!

Good question, I think that circumstances can often dictate how serious a level of say any particular crime is, if someone steals a loaf of bread due to poverty it's hardly the same as someone stealing a PS2 for their own entertainment, the same with lying, if someone lies in order to protect someone then I doubt that it would be a sin at all as oppose to some one who lies purely to save their own skin, I think it's like many things in life, not exactly 'black and white'....

EDIT: As Elohyim quite rightly pointed out to me there's nothing wrong in lying if it's to save your own life in situations either, :thumb: I think the intent behind the 'sin' is often the real issue....

 

[MrRadish]

Are there no animals to kill and eat?

Assume no. Suppose, shall we say, the person is to weak to be able to do that. I appreciate that there is usually another way, but let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this is one of the cases (however rare) where there is no option.

They're not pointless, but they don't save you. It's all about grace.

Forgive my ignorance; on a selfish level (altruism aside; I accept that people can choose to be this way), what does grace achieve?

 

[poptart]

OK, in that case, we might as well not even try to live decently; it's pointless designating sin if the only thing that matters is 'taking the Christ'.

If you think it's pointless to try to live decently, ok.
If that's your view.

Just take the Christ.


When God created Adam he blessed him.
He didn't tell him he would bless him if he prayed well, or if he acted right, or if he did such and such .....
He simply blessed him because he was his child.

Taking Christ restores us to our original relationship with God.
This is why Christ came -- to destroy the work of satan, which was breaking our relationship with God.

You don't have to strive to 'live decently' if it's hard for you.
You DO, however, need to take the Christ.

 

[CabinetMaker]

EDIT: As Elohyim quite rightly pointed out to me there's nothing wrong in lying if it's to save your own life in situations either, :thumb: I think the intent behind the 'sin' is often the real issue....

I think Elohyim is wrong. In Christ's own words:

1. Matthew 16:25
   "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
   http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...se=24&end_verse=26&version=49&context=context
   
2. Mark 8:35
   "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
   http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...se=34&end_verse=36&version=49&context=context
   
3. Luke 9:24
   "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

Important enough to be quoted in three of the four Gospels. If you lie to save your life by denying you believe in Jesus then you will lose your life with Christ. Remember that most of the Apostles died martyrs because they would not reject Christ.

 

[Daniel50]

I Cor 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am
made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

[zspeedyrabit]

The Holy Bible states something to the affect of the following: Blessed is he whos sin is not recorded.

 

[poptart]

The Holy Bible states something to the affect of the following: Blessed is he whos sin is not recorded.

Or in some cases ........

Blessed is he who's sin is not seen by his wife.





:thumb:

 

[MrRadish]

I think Elohyim is wrong. In Christ's own words:

1. Matthew 16:25
   "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
   http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...se=24&end_verse=26&version=49&context=context
   
2. Mark 8:35
   "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
   http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...se=34&end_verse=36&version=49&context=context
   
3. Luke 9:24
   "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

Important enough to be quoted in three of the four Gospels. If you lie to save your life by denying you believe in Jesus then you will lose your life with Christ. Remember that most of the Apostles died martyrs because they would not reject Christ.

So anyone who isn't a martyr (or at least would, in extremis, be absolutely certain to be prepared to be martyred) wouldn't be accepted into Heaven?

Merciful.

Would it not be better to commit a minor sin so that you can go on to do good, universally beneficial things in the future, rather than throwing away the life God gave you, out of what could easily be construed as pride?

 

[red77]

I think Elohyim is wrong. In Christ's own words:

1. Matthew 16:25
   "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
   http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...se=24&end_verse=26&version=49&context=context
   
2. Mark 8:35
   "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
   http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...se=34&end_verse=36&version=49&context=context
   
3. Luke 9:24
   "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

Important enough to be quoted in three of the four Gospels. If you lie to save your life by denying you believe in Jesus then you will lose your life with Christ. Remember that most of the Apostles died martyrs because they would not reject Christ.

i think you're taking what Elohyim said out of context to be honest, i doubt he was advocating denying Christ, just pointing out that in many situations lying to escape death could hardly be construed as sinful....

 

[Lighthouse]

Assume no. Suppose, shall we say, the person is to weak to be able to do that. I appreciate that there is usually another way, but let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this is one of the cases (however rare) where there is no option.

The we should declare war on the tyrants who allow this kind of thing to happen to the citizens of their country.

Forgive my ignorance; on a selfish level (altruism aside; I accept that people can choose to be this way), what does grace achieve?

Grace frees us from sin: the power, the sting, the wages, all of it.

 

[MrRadish]

The we should declare war on the tyrants who allow this kind of thing to happen to the citizens of their country.

And in the meantime, should the populace all martyr themselves?

(Incidentally, while I appreciate your sentiment, war can often exacerbate a situation)

Grace frees us from sin: the power, the sting, the wages, all of it.

But Poptart was just saying that sin can instantly be cancelled by 'taking the Christ'. Surely "the power, the sting, the wages" are all aspects that are solely based in individual conscience, and so grace has no benefit other than to reassure onself, and has nothing to do with God?

 

[Lighthouse]

And in the meantime, should the populace all martyr themselves?

(Incidentally, while I appreciate your sentiment, war can often exacerbate a situation)

What do you think Jesus would say?

But Poptart was just saying that sin can instantly be cancelled by 'taking the Christ'. Surely "the power, the sting, the wages" are all aspects that are solely based in individual conscience, and so grace has no benefit other than to reassure onself, and has nothing to do with God?

"Taking the Christ?" What does that mean? It is God's grace that frees us from sin, and everything associated with it.

 

[Open Arms]

I know one of the fundamental principles of Christianity is that Jesus' sacrifice means that, if we renounce our sins, we can theoretically all be absolved of our them, but I was wondering if you could view personal circumstances as making a sin less grave in one person than in another.

Let us take, for example, a poor, starving family who's provider is forced to steal to survive, and when they steal they make sure it's from people who can spare the supplies. The provider is breaking one of the Ten Commandments. Are they better or worse than someone who breaches a lesser commandment for no good reason?

What about the soldiers in the trenches in World War One? The conditions were absolutely abysmal, particularly for the French, British and British Colonial troops during major battles such as that of the Somme (the Triple Alliance (mainly Germany and Austria-Hungary - sorry for double brackets) had better trenches, albeit with inferior food). For a tiny scrap of relief in the four long years the war lasted, many of them visited prostitutes (thus committing adultery) or engaged in activity viewed as sinful. But are they as sinful as someone who does that in peacetime?

This assumes morality in the Bible is absolute.

The Bible teaches relative truth morality.

Rahab is praised for lying to hied the Israelite spies. Genocide for all the people of Canaan by Joshua's invading army is the same. Each act is judged on the covenant between God and Israel, not some absolute truth the Greek's made up.

In your scenarios above, stealing in dire circumstances can be construed as even righteous. Sex with a prostitute would be extremely hard to justify even with a covenantal relative standard of morality.

If sin is excusable then it is not a sin. Therefore, actual sin (judged by God) can never be excusable without Christ of course.

 

[MrRadish]

What do you think Jesus would say?

Does everyone have the courage of Jesus?

"Taking the Christ?" What does that mean? It is God's grace that frees us from sin, and everything associated with it.

Don't ask me, ask Poptart.

 

[Lighthouse]

Does everyone have the courage of Jesus?

If God says it's wrong, it's wrong.

 

[MrRadish]

If God says it's wrong, it's wrong.

But 'how wrong is it?' was the question.

Indeed, would you say sin can even be evaluated? I'd be interested to hear your view.

 

[Lighthouse]

But 'how wrong is it?' was the question.

Indeed, would you say sin can even be evaluated? I'd be interested to hear your view.

Yes, some sins are greater than others, in certain aspects. But the blood of Christ forgives all. Of course, Jesus didn't think it was wrong for David to eat the show bread.:think:

 

[poptart]

Believe and receive Jesus Christ -- taking the Christ.

Do it once and it's all over.

 

[2ephesians8]

I am reminded of the two men praying in the temple as I read this and struggle with my own 'issues'. The one thanked God that he was not like other men, especially 'that sinner' near him, the other man confessed that he was a sinner and asked God's forgiveness. The second man went away jusitied. Where is your heart?

Paul said his flesh dod what his spirit revolted in and he seemed to have no control over it. What do you make of such things?