Can God lie?

[Derf]

That's because everybody would have done the same thing our parents did under the same circumstances.

That's why everybody died? I don't see that in scripture.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

That's why everybody died?

Yes.

I don't see that in scripture.

I know.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

What does that mean?

That they didn't lie.

What position? That the midwives lied? I thought I understood you to say that they didn't lie. I could go find it.

Your position of what constitutes a lie.

For this thread I am.

If you're talking about being the OP, don't you think when you start a thread about lying that it would be relevant to define what constitutes a lie?
Specially if during the course of it examples of lying are being brought up?

 

[Derf]

That they didn't lie.

Your position of what constitutes a lie.

Is a strawman? How so? Usually my position wouldn't be a strawman, only my caricature of your position would be that.

If you're talking about being the OP, don't you think before you start a thread about lying that it would be relevant to understand what constitutes a lie?
Specially if during the course of it examples of lying are being brought up?

You're welcome to offer a definition for discussion. "Half truth" was an attempt, but you didn't follow up.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Is a strawman? How so? Usually my position wouldn't be a strawman, only my caricature of your position would be that.

You're welcome to offer a definition for discussion. "Half truth" was an attempt, but you didn't follow up.

I followed it up with scripture.

 

[Derf]

I followed it up with scripture.

Here:
Post in thread 'Can God lie?' https://theologyonline.com/threads/can-god-lie.59793/post-1887782?

I don't see how that helps define a lie, or even a half truth. Nor did you explain what information the midwives withheld from pharaoh. They gave him information, but the information was suspect. That's not the same as your scripture example.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Here:
Post in thread 'Can God lie?' https://theologyonline.com/threads/can-god-lie.59793/post-1887782?

No.

I don't see how that helps define a lie, or even a half truth. Nor did you explain what information the midwives withheld from pharaoh. They gave him information, but the information was suspect. That's not the same as your scripture example.

My example from scripture shows that truth is never suspect.

 

[Derf]

No.

My example from scripture shows that truth is never suspect.

And? How does that apply to the question of what a lie is?

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

And? How does that apply to the question of what a lie is?

A lie has no part in truth.
That means it can't have a part in any part of the truth.
Whether that be half of the truth or all of it.

 

[Right Divider]

Please keep in mind that there was no Law of Moses to break at the time of the midwives lies.
No Law, no sin.

You are wrong again.

Romans 5:13 (KJV) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam sinned long before the law was given.

 

[Tambora]

Problem with that is one doesn't have a falsehood to lay at the midwives' feet.
Let's look at one of Jesus' parables.

The Parable of the Hidden Treasure​

44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

Say I'm walkin' along and find something of greater value than anything I own on someone else's land.
I hide it so nobody else comes along and discovers it.
When I'm talking with them, am I telling a lie if I tell them I want their land because it is goodly, and I like it but don't tell them all the reasons I like it?

That would be one of those half truths of not revealing the whole truth.
It's a tactic many use in order to be deceptive but claiming that "technically" it was not a lie.
Abraham did it when he said Sarah was his sister instead of revealing she was his wife.

 

[Derf]

A lie has no part in truth.
That means it can't have a part in any part of the truth.
Whether that be half of the truth or all of it.

Ok, so you're taking the position that because the midwives were rewarded by God, and God has no part in lying, then they must not have lied?

 

[Derf]

You are wrong again.

Romans 5:13 (KJV) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Adam sinned long before the law was given.

Adam sinned against a different law, one that was no longer in force after they left the Garden.

 

[Tambora]

That's because everybody would have done the same thing our parents did under the same circumstances.

There's a lot of truth in that.
Scripture shows that mankind has failed over and over again.
God sends a prophet or judge and folks act right for a little while and then BOOM! they fail.
So God sends another prophet or judge and the same thing keeps repeating over and over and over.

 

[Idolater]

So the kind of lying I proposed, where God says He doesn't lie but He really does lie, is NOT the kind of lie you say He doesn't do according to Titus 1:2. Therefore, even the kind of lie banned in Titus 1:2 is ok, since Titus 1:2 is a lie, potentially, and no longer trustworthy for determining whether God would lie in the other way.

Any lie God allows himself to do is a destroyer of his integrity/character, making him untrustworthy. Not so with humans, under threat from an evil authority, at least not always.

When God said He would destroy Nineveh, but then He didn't, was that a lie? Did this make Him untrustworthy? Isn't it exactly what Titus 1:2 said that He cannot do?

 

[Right Divider]

Adam sinned against a different law, one that was no longer in force after they left the Garden.

Cain sinned by murdering his brother before the law against murder was established.

What do you make of Romans 5:13?

 

[Right Divider]

When God said He would destroy Nineveh, but then He didn't, was that a lie?

That is changing His mind due to the human response to His message being taken seriously.

Jonah 3:10 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:10) ¶ And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.

 

[Derf]

When God said He would destroy Nineveh, but then He didn't, was that a lie? Did this make Him untrustworthy? Isn't it exactly what Titus 1:2 said that He cannot do?

No, that was an implied conditional. As was Hezekiah's impending death.

Do you still think Titus 1:2 means "who cannot lie in this one particular way, but can lie in innumerable other ways"?

 

[Derf]

Cain sinned by murdering his brother before the law against murder was established.

What do you make of Romans 5:13?

I agree, but the Adam example was not as good as Cain.

 

[Right Divider]

I agree, but the Adam example was not as good as Cain.

Okay