Because I don't want to be wrong I think that people should understand. I don't have any argument that He is a lesser God.
Can a Jew be saved without believing the Trinity?
- Thread starter Jacob
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Greetings glorydaz,
Kind regards
Trevor
I have already given my explanation of John 1:1,14. Jesus as the Son of God is clear evidence that God the Father is with us.
Kind regards
Trevor
Greetings again john w,
Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus was and is a man, and thus he is not God. Jesus is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
glorydaz
Well-known member
Are you so afraid of being wrong that you cannot be comforted by what is written?
Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Who is your Saviour, Jacob?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Ah, then you deny your only Saviour. I'm glad you have made that clear.
glorydaz
Well-known member
A mediator must be able to represent both parties. "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one,"
Thus Jesus had to be both man and God, as Paul makes clear.
Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Now, go back to school young man. You haven't graduated yet.
God is my Savior and Jesus too, both.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Then how do you explain these verses?
It can't be "both". It can only be they are the same ONE SAVIOUR GOD.
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Isaiah 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Hosea 13:4 Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Because there is only one God, our Savior, who sent Jesus to be the Savior of the world.
Greetings again glorydaz,
Hebrews 5:1–9 (KJV): 1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Kind regards
Trevor
To be a mediator between two parties, the mediator CANNOT be one of the parties, and therefore Jesus is not God. The following teaches that Jesus as High Priest, and hence the mediator between the two parties, is a man, the Son of God. He can thus mediate between God and man. Possibly you went to the wrong school.
Hebrews 5:1–9 (KJV): 1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: 2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity. 3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. 4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. 5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Kind regards
Trevor
Okay. I'm a little baffled but I believe you.
Post 154.
You gotta read it again. I'll sort of break it down for you...
Don't you see that there is no contradiction between the two ideas? There was no "Jesus", per se, prior to Him being conceived in Mary's womb but Jesus wasn't just a human being. The Bible flatly states that He existed, not only before John the Baptist and Abraham but "in the beginning" and that He is the Creator of all things! Who is the Creator other than God Himself?
So here I'm simply saying that the human male, whom we call Jesus, was what was begotten of God approximately 2000 years ago but the bible states as clear as day that He existed before John the Baptist and even Abraham and that He was there "at the beginning" and is the Creator of all things.
The argument there is two fold:
1. There is no contradiction because the "begotten of God" refers to the incarnation; the physical human male we call Jesus and not that which existed before.
2. There is only one Creator. The Bible states plainly that it is was the Creator Himself that become flesh and dwelt among us. If Jesus is the Creator in the flesh then He is God in the flesh.
Not only that, but Jesus calls Himself things like the "Lord of the Sabbath".
No human being could rightly call himself by that title unless, in addition to being human, He was also God.
He took the name of God for Himself,
When He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM.", His audience instantly understood what He was doing. He was taking God's name, which He told Moses at the Burning Bush, for Himself. He was claiming to be God! They wanted to kill Him for it right then and there.
...repeatedly accepted worship from others
Not even angels accept worship from us - only God!
...and repeatedly forgave sins.
Again, only God can forgive sins. A man might could forgive a crime or other offense if it were committed against him personally but sins are offenses committed against God and only God can forgive them.
Not to mention the performance of countless miracles, up to and including raising people from the dead!
This is stated as evidence that Jesus wasn't making false claims. Anyone can make claims of godhood but only one who was telling the truth could raise people from the dead. Miracles are, in a sense, God's calling card. God gives His prophets the ability to do super-natural things as proof that they are acting at His behest. If Jesus hadn't performed such miracles, we'd know that He not only wasn't God but that He wasn't even a good man but rather a liar and a lunatic.
In addition to that, in John chapter 10, He bluntly states that no one was taking His life from Him but that He, by His own power, was laying down His own life and that He, by His own power, would take it up again. (John 10:18)
No one but God has such power over life and death, Jacob. And Jesus doesn't say that the Father has the power to raise Him up again, He says that He will lay down His life and pick it back up by His own power. Here, I'll just quote the verses....
John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
So in John 10 we're told that Jesus rises Himself from the dead and then in Romans 10 we're taught to believe that "God raised Him from the dead".
Here, I'm simply drawing a parallel between two passages, both dealing with the resurrection. In the first we have Jesus raising Himself from the dead and in the second we have God raising Jesus from the dead. Both are true because Jesus is God!
There can be no other conclusion! Jesus is either God Himself or the bible is false - period. The bible CLEARLY teaches that Jesus is God. Any denial of this truth means either that you haven't read the bible or that you're openly defying it's clear teaching.
This is just the conclusion. It speaks for itself.
Hope that helps!
Resting in Him,
Clete
But you're a Jew!
How can that sentence ever be born inside the mind of any Jew?
"The Lord is One" - isn't that the basis for 99% of Jewish rejection of the Trinity doctrine and more specifically, the deity of Christ?
There is no other God but the Creator, Jacob.
Translation: Humanism= I, Trevor, cannot understand how this "Jesus" could be both God, and man, even though scripture gives me chapter, verse, testifying that He is. What I do not understand, I will not believe. Thus, He is not God, and God the Father is not God,he is God the Father, and the Holy Spirit is not God, as He is the Holy Spirit of God.
Atheists use the same humanism to dismiss the concept of "hell."
Bad regards, Christ rejector.
Moses was a law mediator of the covenant of the house of Israel, was a man, an Israelite by birth; but scripture testifies that he was "the man of God"(like the angel of the Lord):
Deuteronomy 33:1 KJV
And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
Joshua 14:6 KJV
Then the children of Judah came unto Joshua in Gilgal: and Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite said unto him, Thou knowest the thing that the Lord said unto Moses the man of God concerning me and thee in Kadesh-barnea.
Judges 13:6 KJV
Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:
Ezra 3:2 KJV
Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings thereon, as it is written in the law of Moses the man of God.
Psalm 90:1 KJV
[ Psalm 90 ] [ A Prayer of Moses the man of God. ] Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Thus, a mediator, the man of God, and a man of Israel; thus, he constituted a mediator between both God, and man. Thus, he being a figure, a "type," of the Lord Jesus Christ....Deuteronomy 18:15 KJV.
1 Samuel 2:25 KJV
25 If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the Lord, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the Lord would slay them.
The divine answer, is that the mediator would not be just God, not just man-He would be both, and the mediator, would be mediator between God, and men.
Thus, Hebrews 10:5 KJV:
5 Wherefore when he(the mediator-my note) cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body (humanity-my note)hast thou prepared me:
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Right Divider
Body part
Joh 20:27 KJV Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
I can think about two things. One, the words I am. I am not sure what to think about them. The other is Creator. Was Jesus present when God created? I hope that this is helpful. Shalom. Jacob
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Whether one being saved is up to God, not men. To me, you are informed of His Trinity only when you are close enough to Him. That however doesn't seem to be the case of a typical Jew (I am not trying to judge anyone in particular here, it's rather a speculation).
Matthew 9:3-6 (NIV2011)
At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
Here the ancient Jews were offended because only God has the authority to forgive human sins. However, Jesus though trying to make a compromise with them confirmed that He has the authority.
Similarly, in the concept of ancient Jews, only God has the authority to send prophets.
Luke 11:49 (NIV2011 - Woes on the Pharisees and the Experts in the Law)
Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’
Matthew 23:34 (NIV2011 - Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and Pharisees)
Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
Matthew 9:3-6 (NIV2011)
At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
Here the ancient Jews were offended because only God has the authority to forgive human sins. However, Jesus though trying to make a compromise with them confirmed that He has the authority.
Similarly, in the concept of ancient Jews, only God has the authority to send prophets.
Luke 11:49 (NIV2011 - Woes on the Pharisees and the Experts in the Law)
Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’
Matthew 23:34 (NIV2011 - Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and Pharisees)
Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
Greetings again johnw,
Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus is born the Son of God, and is revealed as a human who grows in understanding and wisdom, is baptised at 30, is anointed with the Holy Spirit, by which he then performs miracles, he preaches the gospel of the Kingdom of God, he suffers and dies by crucifixion and is buried and after three days he is resurrected and then exalted to sit at the right hand of God, awaiting his return to sit upon the throne of David for 1000 years. Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
Jesus, like Moses was a man of God, a special vessel raised up by God to be the Saviour, the mediator between God and man. Jesus is the Son of God.
Yes, Jesus is the body prepared, the Servant of God. Please also note that the Letter to the Hebrews quotes or translates the same as the LXX, and the Hebrew of Psalm 40:6-8 speaks of the bondservant.
Kind regards
Trevor
Translation: IMO, assert, pound the podium, return to "Here is what I think humanism" echo chamber
Poor Trevor-2 Cor. 4:4 KJV
Now, take your hand, press to your heart, and listen. Hear it? That's the drum cadence, counting off, one beat at a time, the cadence to your funeral march, when you will meet the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ(Titus 2:13 KJV),an angry "man of war"(Exodus 15:3 KJV), the same LORD God that met Moses, and you will bow down, bend your knee, and confess, that he is Lord, God, in the flesh(Isaiah 45 KJV ff, Philippians 2:10 KJV).You will have no choice, and it will be too late for you. Get saved-now(Romans 13:11 KJV.)