Can a Christian lose their salvation

[Hoping]

You didn't address the scripture I gave you.

I think I did.
1 John was your scrip'...right ?

It's odd that Paul addressed the issue of sin and righteousness in every church he planted. The same things was said in the OT too,

Why does that seem odd ?
Life in Christ is based on righteousness.
When, not if, unrighteousness arises, it must be quashed.
The devil won't stop trying to infiltrate the church, so defenses must be mounted.

These are basically the same promise as given in Galatians 5: 22,23. A new heart and God's Spirit put within enabling them to live in God's statutes and keep His judgements because of love for Him.
And here is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 30: 6 given to the Gentiles.

Thanks be to God.

Do you believe the Israelites/Jews were made sinless too as they were given the same kind of promises?

Only those who follow Jesus' teachings.
The OT Jews were trying to please God while walking in the flesh.
In the NT, we are allowed to walk in the Spirit, instead of in the flesh.

 

[Hoping]

He literally quoted the verses for you. Try reading the posts people make before you respond to them. Otherwise you'll miss stuff. You seem to have a bad habit of doing that.

Yes, 1 John 1.

 

[Gary K]

You can be wrong, if you so choose.

That's too bad and probably not completely true.

That's good. You got one right.

It makes a huge difference. God made promises specifically to Israel and He will keep them.

Rom 15:8 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

Whatever that's supposed to mean...

Paul said that God will restore the kingdom of Israel after the fullness of the gentile come in.

Rom 11:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:25-27 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (11:27) For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


You are immensely confused. God promised Israel that they would be safe in their land forever. That will happen some day.

I don't see truth in the writings of Darby or Scofield. This is a very recent belief system and the leaders of the Reformation would have rejected it as what they taught is not compatible with it.

 

[Gary K]

I think I did.
1 John was your scrip'...right ?

Why does that seem odd ?
Life in Christ is based on righteousness.
When, not if, unrighteousness arises, it must be quashed.
The devil won't stop trying to infiltrate the church, so defenses must be mounted.

Thanks be to God.

Only those who follow Jesus' teachings.
The OT Jews were trying to please God while walking in the flesh.
In the NT, we are allowed to walk in the Spirit, instead of in the flesh.

So, you don't believe the Jews/Israelites could have been made sinless even though God made the same promises to them. Why? Their human nature was no different than ours.

 

[Gary K]

I think I did.
1 John was your scrip'...right ?

Why does that seem odd ?
Life in Christ is based on righteousness.
When, not if, unrighteousness arises, it must be quashed.
The devil won't stop trying to infiltrate the church, so defenses must be mounted.

Thanks be to God.

Only those who follow Jesus' teachings.
The OT Jews were trying to please God while walking in the flesh.
In the NT, we are allowed to walk in the Spirit, instead of in the flesh.

So how can the devil infiltrate the chuitch if Christians are sinless?

 

[Hoping]

So, you don't believe the Jews/Israelites could have been made sinless even though God made the same promises to them. Why? Their human nature was no different than ours.

Please make it known if you are talking about OT or NT Jews.
The NT Jews have all the same power over the "flesh" as the NT Gentile believers.
In the OT, men were still doing the presages of what can be done in the NT.
They had circumcision of the flesh, while we have a circumcision done without hands in casting off the body of the sins of the flesh.
It is written..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" (Com 2:11)
The NT circumcision actually accomplishes something the OT circumcision couldn't.
It allows us to now walk in the Spirit, as the flesh has been cast away.

 

[Hoping]

So how can the devil infiltrate the church if Christians are sinless?

The devil can't, but he keeps trying.
That is why the old messages keep being repeated.
Watch out, and beware, and keep praying, and keep studying, and keep being charitable, and be careful about what you see-hear.
Stay apart from the wicked.
Walk as Jesus walked.
Have faith.
And a hundred other exhortations.

 

[Right Divider]

I don't see truth in the writings of Darby or Scofield.

That is irrelevant to our discussion.
It's also a fallacious argument.

This is a very recent belief system

No, it's not. It's based on the Bible and particularly the epistles of Paul (whom Christ chose to give the dispensation of grace for us).

and the leaders of the Reformation would have rejected it as what they taught is not compatible with it.

Who cares what the "leaders of the Reformation" would have rejected?

The Bible clearly has different "dispensations" as God has done different things with different people at different times. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

 

[Gary K]

Please make it known if you are talking about OT or NT Jews.
The NT Jews have all the same power over the "flesh" as the NT Gentile believers.
In the OT, men were still doing the presages of what can be done in the NT.
They had circumcision of the flesh, while we have a circumcision done without hands in casting off the body of the sins of the flesh.
It is written..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:" (Com 2:11)
The NT circumcision actually accomplishes something the OT circumcision couldn't.
It allows us to now walk in the Spirit, as the flesh has been cast away.

When did Jeremiah live? It was to him God made known the new covenant?

Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

Hab 2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Isa 58:1 “Cry aloud; do not hold back; lift up your voice like a trumpet; declare to my people their transgression, to the house of Jacob their sins.
Isa 58:2 Yet they seek me daily and delight to know my ways, as if they were a nation that did righteousness and did not forsake the judgment of their God; they ask of me righteous judgments; they delight to draw near to God.
Isa 58:3 ‘Why have we fasted, and you see it not? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you take no knowledge of it?’ Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure, and oppress all your workers.
Isa 58:4 Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to hit with a wicked fist. Fasting like yours this day will not make your voice to be heard on high.
Isa 58:5 Is such the fast that I choose, a day for a person to humble himself? Is it to bow down his head like a reed, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? Will you call this a fast, and a day acceptable to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 “Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of wickedness, to undo the straps of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall your light break forth like the dawn, and your healing shall spring up speedily; your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the LORD shall be your rear guard.
Isa 58:9 Then you shall call, and the LORD will answer; you shall cry, and he will say, ‘Here I am.’ If you take away the yoke from your midst, the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
Isa 58:10 if you pour yourself out for the hungry and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then shall your light rise in the darkness and your gloom be as the noonday.
Isa 58:11 And the LORD will guide you continually and satisfy your desire in scorched places and make your bones strong; and you shall be like a watered garden, like a spring of water, whose waters do not fail.

The same kind of promises given to the Gentiles were given to the Jews.

Paul said:

Rom 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
Rom 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Col_2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Here is Paul quoting Habbakuk 2: 4

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[7djengo7]

I thank you for going a little deeper into the thought about murder than I did.

I thank you for showing, by your insane reaction to my pointing out your glaring contradiction against 1 John 3:15, just how shameless a liar you are by your even now refusing to own your manifest error, therein. Since, as you've seen, 1 John 3:15 teaches that Cain did not become a murderer by murdering his brother Abel, when are you going to retract your cherished, Bible-contradicting falsehood that you asserted, that Cain became a murderer by murdering his brother Abel, and admit that you have been wrong in asserting it?

 

[7djengo7]

I, and everyone else, knows if they are obeying God.

You've repeatedly stated that you do not know that you are obeying God.

The disobedient won't be saved.

Only the obedient to God will be saved? Yes or No?

If it's true that only the obedient to God will be saved, then, if you can't know until Judgement Day that you will be saved, you can't know until Judgement Day that you are obedient to God on 26 September 2023 (or on any other time prior to Judgement Day).

Where did I say "I don't know if I am obeying God" ?

Where did I say you said "I don't know if I am obeying God"? I did not say you said "I don't know if I am obeying God".

Not knowing my future doesn't disqualify me from knowing my past.

So long as the set of all whom you say will be saved on Judgement Day is the same as the set of all whom you say will have obeyed God before Judgement Day, by telling us you won't know until Judgement Day whether or not you will be saved, you are telling us you do not at present know whether or not you are at present obeying God.

 

[Gary K]

That is irrelevant to our discussion.
It's also a fallacious argument.

No, it's not. It's based on the Bible and particularly the epistles of Paul (whom Christ chose to give the dispensation of grace for us).

Who cares what the "leaders of the Reformation" would have rejected?

The Bible clearly has different "dispensations" as God has done different things with different people at different times. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

Who cares about the reformation? I do.. If not for those men we wouldn't have the Bible or liberty. Millions were burnt at the stake for simply reading the scriptures or speaking about them. They were men of conscience. love for God and great courage willing to sacrifice their lives for truth. I admire them greatly. I wish I had the same kind of faith they had. They were men like the apostles/disciples.

 

[Right Divider]

Who cares about the reformation? I do..

Good for you.

If not for those men we wouldn't have the Bible or liberty.

That's quite a claim.

Millions were burnt at the stake for simply reading the scriptures or speaking about them.

That's bad.

They were men of conscience. love for God and great courage willing to sacrifice their lives for truth. I admire them greatly. I wish I had the same kind of faith they had. They were men like the apostles/disciples.

OK, what does all of this have to do with anything?

 

[Hoping]

So, you don't believe the Jews/Israelites could have been made sinless even though God made the same promises to them. Why?

Because they all walked in the flesh.
Fortunately for them, they had the Law's atonements for sin, or they would all have perished.

Their human nature was no different than ours.

"Our" human nature was crucified with Christ.
It is no longer a factor in life.
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
The Jews didn't accept Christ for who He was, and missed out on the regeneration.

Christians, those reborn of God's seed, have a divine nature.
Peter writes..."Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4)

 

[Hoping]

So how can the devil infiltrate the chuitch if Christians are sinless?

I already answered that in a previous post.
The devil cannot infiltrate a real church.
He may try, but he can't stand to be around righteous people and will leave.

 

[Hoping]

When did Jeremiah live? It was to him God made known the new covenant?

I am not sure when he lived, right now.

The same kind of promises given to the Gentiles were given to the Jews.
Paul said:
Here is Paul quoting Habbakuk 2: 4

What was told to the Jews were prophesies that would occur at a later date.
You just provided the prophesies and their fulfillments.

 

[Gary K]

I already answered that in a previous post.
The devil cannot infiltrate a real church.
He may try, but he can't stand to be around righteous people and will leave.

So Paul didn't start any real churches? Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, Phillipi, and Rome weren't real churches?

 

[Gary K]

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.I am not sure when he lived, right now.

What was told to the Jews were prophesies that would occur at a later date.
You just provided the prophesies and their fulfillments.

Jeremiah lived during the Babylonian captivity.

Oh, so God didn't actually mean any of His OT promises of a spiritual nature for the nation of Israel. He only meant them for the Gentiles. He was just playing games with Israel? He was just giving them false hope? I find that idea an insult to God.

What do you think the following meant?

Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

You seem to have some very odd beliefs that scripture contradicts quite plainly.

Act_10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Peter said that when he went to Cornelius' home and preached the gospel to he and his relatives. Peter didn't think you and I should hear the gospel until God showed him differently in a dream. The entire Christian church was Jews until Paul came along.

 

[Gary K]

@Hoping

I have one final passage of scripture for you and then I will stop banging on you. Revrelation is a prophetic book so these are prophecies of the Christian church down through time. Notice especially the message to the church of Laodicea as I think we can both agree this is the Christian church of our day as it's hard to see how the evil surrounding us today can get get much worse/

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So those are the seven churches down through time and the messages to them are found in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Out of all seven time periods only two churches did not come under severe condemnation by God for their beliefs and/or behavior. If real churhes cannot be influenced by the devil the large majority of God's church down throughout time have not been real churches. I'd say your beliefs make God out to be as miserable failure in the Christian church.

Notice also the similarities between the Jews of Christ's day and the church of Laodicea. The Pharisees were very proud of themselves and their spiritual condition. It's the reason they murdered Jesus as the devil was leading them around by the nose and they had no idea that it was happening. That tells me that he has the ability to so deceive Christians that they think they are right with God when just the opposite is true. That's the message to the church of our day. How can it not be as we have Christians who support transgenderism and homosexuality.

 

[Right Divider]

Out of all seven time periods...

That is a nonsensical interpretation.