Can a Christian lose their salvation

Hoping

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Banned
Absolutely! But Paul does not teach instant perfection.
Blech.
I can't understand how you can believe the old man can be destroyed (Rom 6:6), and we are raised with Christ to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:4), but still walk as unbelievers ?
Your brain does not work properly.
It works a lot better than when I was defending sin.
You poor lost soul.
Save your pity for the sinners
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
It's not just a simple black and white answer of yes or no.
You are in denial.
We still deal with the flesh, as I mentioned in my post that you refuse to address for some strange reason.
No, we are not "in the flesh".
We are to be walking in the Spirit after rebirth.
It is written..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)
All the time.
More denial of the finished work of Christ ?
The "rope" in the analogy is the way to get to heaven.
I will call it the "narrow path".
You can either climb the rope, or you can let the one who already climbed the rope pull you to the end of it without having to climb it any more.
The rope is infinitely long.
The ways and means of salvation are clearly defined in scripture, and nowhere are we told to sit on our hands to get to heaven.
You keep saying that, because your position doesn't allow you to know.
My position not only allows me to know whether I am saved or not, but it even GUARANTEES IT!
If scripture agreed with your position, it would be very comforting.
It is written..."Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor 10:12)
Again, Paul's gospel teaches the cross as good and necessary.
EVERY mention of the cross PRIOR to Paul, after the crucifixion, is a murder indictment.
All mentions of the cross bring to mind the sufferings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
What is done with those mentionings may vary with the context of the teaching or remembrance, or persecution for it.
Things that are different are not the same.
It depends on one's perspective.
As ice cream cone can be a murder weapon.
And how it is presented shows which dispensation is active.
It only shows differing perspectives of the crucifixion.
Some were from witnesses and others by those who only heard about it later.
Don't bear false witness against your neighbor.
Don't turn the cross of our salvation into an idol.
That is an exhortation for all the readers.
If you feel accused, perhaps you should check your conscience.
You cannot love God by trying to earn your salvation
What a pathetic thing to write.
Anyone who has turned from sin and been baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, loves Jesus with all their heart, soul, and mind.
Earning salvation is your side-track.
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Yet he was justified by the offering of his son.
irrelevant. We're talking about how one is saved, not what one does AFTER one is saved.
As salvation won't be assured till the day of judgement, your point is moot.
Quit putting the cart before the horse.
Back at you.
Again, not what is being discussed.
Well we can just drop it right here.
Yes, God said "Believe and you will be saved."

Believing itself does nothing.

God is the one who made getting saved possible through His death, burial, and resurrection. God determined that in order for anyone to access that salvation, they must put their trust in Him.

Believe, and you will be saved



Repenting of sin will not net you salvation.



Nope.

That's a work.

"To him who works, his wages are not counted as grace, but as debt."

BELIEVE, and God will grace you out.



So, what tribe of Israel are you from, again?



"To him who works, his wages are not counted as grace, but as debt."

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast.



Salvation of mankind has been achieved. But whether someone is saved is conditioned (iow, God has set the conditions for His applying that salvation to someone) on whether they have put their faith in Him.



Wrong.

"To him who works, his wages are not counted as grace, but as debt."

"By grace you have been saved."



I used meritorious for a reason, Hoping, because words mean things.

Meritorious means "deserving of reward or praise."

You, Hoping, are attempting to "endure to the end" so that, come judgement day, you "deserve" (aka, "a debt to be paid") to have your name written in the Book of Life.

No matter how you try to reword it to try to make it seem more palatable, to try to get around the scripture that clearly contradicts your beliefs, that is your position.

And it is, in fact, contrary to scripture.



All have sinned, have fallen short of the glory of God.

The wages of sin is death.

You, Hoping, deserve death, eternal separation from God because of your sins.

The law condemns you, because you have violated God's law.



Since you have already violated God's law, you WILL receive your just desserts.

Mercy and grace are two sides of the same coin.

Do this, DON'T get that. Mercy is not getting what you DO deserve. You deserve death. God has provided a way, not of works, but out of mercy, to have your sins paid for ("wages," "debt").

Don't do this, DO get that. Grace is getting something you DON'T deserve. You do not deserve to have eternal life. But by NOT working, and instead, placing your trust in God to save you, God will give you life.



The confused one here is you, since you think that whenever "works" are mentioned without it mentioning the Mosaic Law, it must automatically mean "keeping the Mosaic Law," when that's just not the case.

Under the current dispensation, you cannot be obedient to God if you have not first placed your trust in Him.

You keep trying to apply the house rules of the previous dispensation to the current.



Nope.

Trying to reach heaven, acquire eternal life, through the practicing of the law, is like trying to shoot a musket here on Earth to try to hit a target in the most distant star system.

It is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

YOU CANNOT obey enough to earn your salvation.

Paul says in Romans 3:

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.



The effects of real faith are that one is saved, and that a relationship between the one who believes and God is restored, making it possible for him to love God.



Your self-righteousness is showing.



You still live in your flesh, and as such, are subject to the desires of the flesh.



The gift of God is acquired by grace through faith, not of works, not of repentance from sin.

It is by putting your faith in the one who can save you.



You certainly have the "gift" of self-righteousness.



Or, I just don't appreciate you (as anyone would not) making ambiguous comments that could be interpreted as such.

Let your yes be yes, and your no be no.

If you have something to say, SAY IT, don't beat around the bush making (not so subtle) innuendos about our beliefs.



See below.



In what insane world do you exist in that a murder indictment against someone is "good news"?



In other words, "I like my doctrine that makes it seem like I am now sinlessly perfect, and that I am being a good person."

Who's position is truly accommodating sin, Hoping?

The one which recognizes that sin is still a problem in our lives, and tells its tenants to seek God? OR the one simply denies it happens, while being utterly self-righteous, not relying on God to save, but rather on one's own merits?



You were addressed in my post below.



That's rich, coming from someone who is so self-righteous he denies that commits sin!

----

Here, I'll compromise, because I really do want you to answer my challenges to your position.

I'll remove the Scripture from my post, and all the minor points that have nothing to do with the main thrust of my argument, so that you can see that it really is not very long, and that what makes it "long" is the fact that I'm literally quoting large passages of scripture to support my points.

However, I'm not going to edit my original post.

If you want to respond to the short post I made, then you'll need to quote it, and remove the portions that don't need to be responded to. No, that does not mean you get to pick and choose willy nilly what you get to respond to. It means that you need to respond to the direct points I made about your position.
 

Right Divider

Body part
I'm sorry you feel yourself unworthy of that holy Root.
That is stupid.
He was trying to get them to turn from all sin.
He was specifically calling them out for one specific sin.
You can find it in Rom 6:6-7, and Rom 8:1-4,9-11, 1 Cor 1:9, and 1 Cor 2:6, and 2 Cor 5:21, and Gal 5:24, and Eph 2:1-3, and 2 Tim 3:17, and Titus 1:15-16, and lots of other places too.
It would seem as if you just don't want to see it.
No, it does not. You are seeing the scripture through your bogus lens.
I think the writers were over whelmed by the days events.
LOL... you are getting more ridiculous with every post. God is the one that inspired the scripture.
If you feel you are truly unworthy of God's promises, so be it.
Bearing false witness is a sin. You sin in every post.
I will grab all that is available to His servants.
When you try to steal other peoples promises, that makes you a thief.
Do you mean...Keep the faith ! ?
You are so sadly clueless.
 
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JudgeRightly

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You are in denial.

The only thing I am in denial of at this point is your willingness to participate in this forum with integrity.

No, we are not "in the flesh".

Who's in denial, again?

We still live in our fleshy bodies, and, as I said, still have to deal with the flesh.

But Christians are to not "walk in the flesh," but rather, in the Spirit."

We are to be walking in the Spirit

Indeed!

after rebirth.

No. Rebirth was for Israel, not the BoC.

It is written..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (Rom 8:9)

AMEN!

More denial of the finished work of Christ?

There hasn't been any denial of the finished work of Christ, except by you, with your refusal to place your trust solely in His finished work, and instead putting your faith in your alleged "enduring to the end."

I will call it the "narrow path".

Sorry, but you don't get to change the analogy.

The ways and means of salvation are clearly defined in scripture,

Yup. Romans 10:9-10 comes to mind. And Ephesians 2:8-9.

and nowhere are we told to sit on our hands to get to heaven.

On the contrary, we are told multiple times that we cannot do anything to earn our way to heaven.

The verses you refer to have to do with one's walk AFTER being saved by the Grace of God. They are not telling us how to achieve salvation.

If scripture agreed with your position, it would be very comforting.

Hmmm...

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

It is written..."Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor 10:12)

Maybe, just maybe, you should look in a mirror, you who claims to be sinless.

I recognize that I am a human in need of a Savior. If that's "thinking I stand" according to your theology, then it's no wonder your beliefs are such a mess, since you think pride is humility and humility is pride.

All mentions of the cross bring to mind the sufferings of the Lord Jesus Christ.
What is done with those mentionings may vary with the context of the teaching or remembrance, or persecution for it.

And I'm telling you that there's a reason for the differences,

That being, the differences indicate the dispensation they are within, the house rules.

You go to someone's house to play pool, and you hit the 8 ball into the corner pocket. In your house, whenever you play pool, this is totally acceptable. But because they have a rule in their house that says you have to call which pocket you hit the 8 ball into before you do so, then you lose because you didn't do so, and using your own rules is invalid, because you're not in your house, but someone else's.

The "rule" for Israel was that Christ's hanging on the cross was condemnation against Israel.

But the "rule" for the Body of Christ (which you are not a part of), is that Christ's hanging on the cross, along with His burial and resurrection, is the means by which He saved the Human race from sin.

It depends on one's perspective.
As ice cream cone can be a murder weapon.

The problem is that you are refusing to even consider changing your perspective.

It's called a paradigm shift, Hoping. Few people ever experience a true paradigm shift. But when they do, it allows them to see things in a whole new light.

These "changes in perspective" you mention are where you need to start if you ever hope to have a paradigm shift.

They are not "different perspectives."

They are the result of your brain telling you, "hey, wake up, there's something important here!"

Take some time to analyze those perspectives, try to shift your perspective. Take off the "Hoping-colored" sunglasses you're wearing for a moment and truly consider what it could mean if what I'm saying is true.

It only shows differing perspectives of the crucifixion.
Some were from witnesses and others by those who only heard about it later.

Luke wrote Acts, Paul wrote Romans through Philemon. We don't know who wrote Hebrews, except that we know it wasn't Paul. Peter wrote his Epistles, James his, John his, Jude his, and John wrote Revelation

Don't turn the cross of our salvation into an idol.
That is an exhortation for all the readers.
If you feel accused, perhaps you should check your conscience.

This veiled bearing false witness is the penultimate nail in your account's coffin here on TOL.

No one here has turned the cross into an idol, and shame on you for even implying it.

What a pathetic thing to write.

Hypocrite.

Anyone who has turned from sin and been baptized into Christ and into His death and burial, loves Jesus with all their heart, soul, and mind.

Not according to Paul, per Romans 10:9-10.

Earning salvation is your side-track.

I'm not the one who thinks he can earn his name's spot in the Book of Life.

Yet he was justified by the offering of his son.

Justified, yes, but his righteousness came through faith.

Justified is not "made righteous."

Justification is the legal acquittal of guilt.

Righteousness is the act of fulfilling the law.

Righteousness (the law fulfilled) was applied to Abraham's account. He was made righteous simply because He believed God.

Abraham was justified (acquitted of all guilt) in his offering up of his son (while Jesus', the Son of God, being sacrificed allowed the acquittal of all guilt from sin), "Now I know you fear God."

Abraham was righteous several years (Genesis 15) before he was justified (Genesis 22).

That should give you pause.

It's not either/or, Hoping, it's BOTH/AND. BUT he was righteous before he was justified, just as believers in the Body of Christ are made righteous through faith, and justified BY grace through faith.

As salvation won't be assured till the day of judgement, your point is moot.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Back at you.

First remove the plank in your own eye, before trying to remove the mote in someone else's.

Well we can just drop it right here.

And that's the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back.

Do not come back to TOL. You are no longer welcome here, because you have shown yourself unwilling to be intellectually honest in your dealings on TOL.

I pray that the Holy Spirit brings you to the truth, for "The Truth shall set you free."
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Is it possible to loose your salvation once saved?
Christians can and do break or mar their fellowship with God and with his son Jesus Christ and therefore with fellow believers thus not having fulness of joy, but not lose their sonship, that gift of salvation/eternal life.

I John 1 makes it apparent

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Likewise chapter three makes cofirms our sonship, as does Romans 8

I John 3 ASV

Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. For this cause the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if [a]he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
3 And every one that hath this hope set on him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Is it possible to loose your salvation once saved?
No. However, we must define salvation.

Salvation as defined as the gift of salvation, or the gift of eternal life, it is impossible to lose that gift of eternal life.

However, salvation has other definitions other than being saved from eternal death.

The Greek word, sozo, basically means to be made whole. As far as the gift of salvation goes, that means made whole from eternal death.

However, per the Blue Letter Bible, and Thayers we read,

a. universally, τινα, one (from injury or peril); to save a suffering one (from perishing), e. g. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health:

Thus, a person can be saved to eternal life but still be physically or mentally ill. Salvation, ie, to be made whole from physical or mental illness could be a need for the spiritually saved. Likewise their physical and mental wholeness could fluctuate.
 

Nick M

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Christians can and do break or mar their fellowship with God and with his son Jesus Christ and therefore with fellow believers thus not having fulness of joy, but not lose their sonship, that gift of salvation/eternal life.

I John 1 makes it apparent
And Paul teaches the opposite. How would you like to deal the apparent contradiction? Ignore it so people are pulled from the faith?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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And Paul teaches the opposite. How would you like to deal the apparent contradiction? Ignore it so people are pulled from the faith?
My question is not rhetorical. Take your time.

If you didn't know Paul does refute 1 John directly, read carefully. I won't post everything in the letter to proselytized gentiles in Rome.

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?....5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

My spirit and soul occupy a dead body. I can prove the body is dead by sin, and the commandments. But I have been freed from it.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
And Paul teaches the opposite. How would you like to deal the apparent contradiction? Ignore it so people are pulled from the faith?
There is no contradiction. When we get born again or saved, we receive the gift of holy spirit. This gift completes us as God designed us to be.

I Thes 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This wholeness, that is, having spirit, as well as body and soul completes us, but it does not perfect us. This gift of holy spirit does not eliminate our sinful ways, we must do that, as I will expand on later.

That salvation that comes from receiving the gift of holy spirit frees us from the eternal condemnation of John 3

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We still need to renew our minds to think and do all that we are instructed to do as believers in this age of Grace, as given in Paul's epistles (not the law of Moses).

This renewing of the mind is referred to as salvation of the soul. As stated above, the gift does not renew our minds, we must renew our minds to live according to the truth of this age of Grace.

James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

the mind is a function of the soul. The brain is part of the physical body. The mind is part of the soul.

Romans 12 introduces this topic of renewing our minds very wonderfully.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Colossians 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Thus, once we have received the gift of spirit which saves us from eternal condemnation, and completes us. It behooves us to live accordingly, we must renew our minds to live the word of God that is, to save our souls.
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
My question is not rhetorical. Take your time.

If you didn't know Paul does refute 1 John directly, read carefully. I won't post everything in the letter to proselytized gentiles in Rome.

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?....5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

My spirit and soul occupy a dead body. I can prove the body is dead by sin, and the commandments. But I have been freed from it.
So you seem to think two inspired writers contradict each other? That, in my opinion, makes a mockery of inspiration by God.
 

Lon

Well-known member
So you seem to think two inspired writers contradict each other? That, in my opinion, makes a mockery of inspiration by God.
Know who you are talking to, this board is Mid Acts and for them, the contradiction isn't a disagreement, but how each applies differently to the target audience (Jew vs gentile). Nick may have rather said "if you are trying to follow John as well as Paul, you are trying to follow two different directions for two different people' or something like. I don't believe Nick was trying to tell you that scripture is neurotic (will let him clarify). I read 1 John differently: to all believers but don't see the directives between he and Paul as contradictory. Paul is talking about intrinsic indwelling of all believers. John is talking about an extrinsic 'test' to see if you are in the faith (an indication that you are indwelled by Christ). John makes a lot of points in 1 John that show he is thinking of 'Who indwells you' as part of a believer's intrinsic motivation so I don't see a conflict as I read 1 John. -Lon
 

Right Divider

Body part
Know who you are talking to, this board is Mid Acts and for them, the contradiction isn't a disagreement, but how each applies differently to the target audience (Jew vs gentile). Nick may have rather said "if you are trying to follow John as well as Paul, you are trying to follow two different directions for two different people' or something like. I don't believe Nick was trying to tell you that scripture is neurotic (will let him clarify). I read 1 John differently: to all believers but don't see the directives between he and Paul as contradictory. Paul is talking about intrinsic indwelling of all believers. John is talking about an extrinsic 'test' to see if you are in the faith (an indication that you are indwelled by Christ). John makes a lot of points in 1 John that show he is thinking of 'Who indwells you' as part of a believer's intrinsic motivation so I don't see a conflict as I read 1 John. -Lon
John (along with Peter and James) and Paul agreed to separate their ministries and there was a reason for that.
 

Gary K

New member
Banned
Why? Cannot God do different things at different times with different people?
God can do different things with different people because we are individuals, but He never contradicts Himself. It's like Jesus said, a house divided cannot stand. He doesn't fight against Himself. He is infinitely smarter than we are and we are capable of seeing the futility of contradicting ourselves.
 

Right Divider

Body part
God can do different things with different people because we are individuals, but He never contradicts Himself.
Why is God giving contradictory instructions such a problem for you?
It's like Jesus said, a house divided cannot stand.
Jesus gave the disciples different and contradictory instructions during His earthly ministry.
Luke 9:3 (AKJV/PCE)​
(9:3) And he said unto them, Take nothing for [your] journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.​
Luke 10:4 (AKJV/PCE)​
(10:4) Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.​
Luke 22:35-36 (AKJV/PCE)​
(22:35) And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. (22:36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.​
He doesn't fight against Himself.
That does not mean that some of His instruction cannot be contradictory at different times based on circumstances and goals.
He is infinitely smarter than we are and we are capable of seeing the futility of contradicting ourselves.
Duh.

You've proven nothing.

Rom 4:1-5 (AKJV/PCE)​
(4:1) What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (4:2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. (4:3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4:4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (4:5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Jas 2:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)​
(2:21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (2:22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (2:23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (2:24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
They both quote Gen 15:6 and they give contradictory takes on it. One says faith only and one says faith and works. So which is it?
 
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