Epoisses
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Mindless drone bot destitute of any saving grace!
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Mindless drone bot destitute of any saving grace!
God's Truth
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Nanja
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Yep, and blasphemy to the uttermost!
The devil has convinced you that faith is a work. Even if faith was a work it is not a work that saves.
Jesus is the savior, Hebrews 7:25.
Epoisses
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Blasphemy is to limit Christ's sacrificial death to only a chosen few which is exactly what the Jews did! We have Abraham as our father and all you Gentiles are lost. **News Flash** Abraham was a Gentile!
Nanja
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Christ died for all the Spiritual Seed of Abraham [jew and Gentile], the Election of Grace, Chosen in Union with Him of the Father before the foundation of the World Eph. 1:4; the Church Eph. 5:25, the Body of Christ.
Heb. 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Gal. 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1 Cor. 12:12
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
2 Tim. 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
Shasta
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For one, that is not what many of your Calvinist brethren have been saying. They are saying that their predetermined status as one of the "elect" is equivalent to their being "saved" even before they are called. The only question is, and always should be: is that what scripture says?
Going by what the Apostles explicitly said they did not see it this way. After explaining who Jesus was and what he did they would follow with an invitation. Everyone who heard was told to repent, believe on Jesus and they would be saved.
This was not a complicated message really. Nothing was said about the invitation being conditioned upon what had occurred in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. People understood it to mean that the gospel had to be believed right then. The preachers did not seem to presumed that people were UNABLE to believe or obey the gospel. The message seemed to assume that they could accept or reject what was said.
I really do not like altering the plain meaning of a text in order to accomodate someone's theological system. That is eisegesis, not exegesis but it is what Calvinist theology demands.
Being "on one's way to being saved" is not the same as being saved. Jesus said one man was "not far from the kingdom" (Mark 12:28-34) yet he could not enjoy the benefits of the Kingdom until he had actually entered. Being saved is not a continuum. One person is not a little more or less saved than another.
With regard to salvation a person's status is categorical. We are either saved or we are not saved. On the Day the nations are judged God will not judge people according to the relative proportion of goat or sheep nature they have. People will be revealed as being categorically EITHER a goat OR a sheep.
Lon
Well-known member
Great questions, Shasta:
Ephesians 1:4 Revelation 13:8 and Colossians 3:12 "Chosen by God." It is a great question because it assumes a lot, doesn't it? This doctrine has to do with God's Foreknowledge and Sovereignty in choosing us and when He did that. If one believes in both, they would then see some of the logic behind the Calvinist assertion: If God knows, then He certainly 'chose' to save us. It makes sense. Your question, though raises another: "How can you know if you are one of the elect? (to a Reformed in this case). For me: Romans 10:13 I called. In that sense, I'm no different than any other new creation: Jesus Saves. I called, Jesus Saved. Whenever you see "I was chosen" that more accurately describes 'when.' I try and always follow through: How? Hope it helps. We have unsaved in Reformed churches just as all other churches. They too, need to hear the gospel and call upon the Name of the Lord. Just like in other rescues, rescue-ees sometimes miss some of the important details. "How" will help you get them.
Agree. This is rather about the timelessness of God as well. What He says is as if it already happened, though it is to be carried out in the unfolding of time. That, I think, is the short answer. Another important point is this: Most evangelicals see salvation as an event and decision. Most Reformed see it as a whole deal that encompasses more what the Lord Jesus Christ has already done, than what we do (monergism). Some of them would not list Romans 10:13 because it would be seen as 'synergism.' Essentially, they are trying to explain that what God saves He keeps and if we have anything to do with it, we'd easily mess it up. I believe God places His new nature in us (or recreates us new), and so I try to reach across the aisle believing no new creation can fail. It too is monergistic, but those not Calvinist understand it in these terms better.
I agree, rather it becomes important in relating what happened, in the description. Such doesn't (and cannot) erase what happened. No discussion between Calvinists and another, no matter how heated, can erase events. One of us (depending on the view) is just relating it wrong. Part of the problem, and I share the concern, is how one next hears the gospel BUT we are responsible for doing sowing and watering and God gives the increase. I try to ensure there is moisture in my dirt, or dirt in my hose when I'm speaking to someone about salvation in Jesus Christ. it seems a wise practice, but I'm convinced God sets those seemingly serendipitous moments Ephesians 2:10.
As I said prior, I think it more about what one is observing about an event. That's why at official scenes police take reports of all witnesses. Some recall faultily.
Did I say that? :think: I don't remember, but if your Savior is the Lord Jesus Christ, and He saves, then "is saving" is pretty much a done deal. That's your argument too, I'm just saying you have to dig into what one means by "being saved." I don't remember the context of this particular, however. Hope at least this brief redress touches on the concern.
Again, I'm not sure what this addresses more specifically, but I agree, if that helps. -Lon
God's Truth
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Faith is a work.
The devil has convinced you that when it is said not of works is about all obedience instead of just the purification works.
God's Truth
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All those are about the purification works. Look at those scriptures more carefully, not far from those scriptures you will see 'circumcision' spoken of. Circumcision is the seal of the purification works, it is the sign.
God's Truth
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You brought up 'works' in Romans. See, it is about circumcision, the purification/ceremonial works.
Romans 2:25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
Romans 2:27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Romans 3:1 [ God’s Faithfulness ] What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?
Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
Romans 2:25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
Romans 2:27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
Romans 2:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Romans 3:1 [ God’s Faithfulness ] What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?
Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.
God's Truth
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You also brought up a scripture in Ephesians about 'no works', and look closely, it is too about circumcision, the purification/ceremonial works.
Ephesians 2:11 [ Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ ] Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—
Ephesians 2:11 [ Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ ] Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—
God's Truth
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You also brought up Titus, look, it is about the work of circumcision.
Titus 1:10 [ Rebuking Those Who Fail to Do Good ] For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.
Titus 1:10 [ Rebuking Those Who Fail to Do Good ] For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.
Epoisses
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Faith is the gift of God that you do not possess.
God's Truth
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You brought up Galatians and 'no works'. Look, it is about the purification/ceremonial works:
Galatians 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Galatians 5:11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.
Galatians 6:11 [ Not Circumcision but the New Creation ] See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!
Galatians 6:13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh.
Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
Galatians 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
Galatians 5:11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.
Galatians 6:11 [ Not Circumcision but the New Creation ] See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!
Galatians 6:13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh.
Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
Epoisses
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How dare you quote Galatians which rebukes you on so many levels!
God's Truth
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The 'no works' is about circumcision. Circumcision is the seal and sign of the purification/ceremonial WORKS.
Come to your senses. Paul would not teach 'no obey'.
Epoisses
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Works/performance religion is of the devil. Earn is the favorite word of the world which should tell you something.
God's Truth
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The purification/ceremonial works were commanded by God, but they had nothing to do with good and evil.
Those are the works that no longer are required and no longer save.
Obeying God is never ever wrong.
I implore you to think about it some more.