musterion
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Quit parroting your denominational tradition. Show that from Scripture.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Quit parroting your denominational tradition. Show that from Scripture.
I don't belong to a denomination.
You still have not answered my question. If Jesus fulfilled the law, Matthew 5:18. Who did he fulfill the law for?
Paul said that he lived by faith and not by laws. While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the "Holy of Holies" from the top to the bottom. This signified the end of the law and the Old Covenant, Matthew 27:51.
You cannot be reconciled to God if you are still under the law. Jesus in our name and on our behalf, fulfilled the law and then abolished it, Ephesians 2:15.
God's Truth
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You are a joke. Jesus fulfilled the law for ALL.
For the Jews, and for the Gentiles.
The law is what SEPARATED the Gentiles and made them to be a people WITHOUT GOD.
Ephesians 2:12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
Did you read that ensnared one?
God's Truth
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Jesus made the two men ONE.
Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
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Ours is an Alien Righteousness
Ours is an Alien Righteousness
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Ours is an Alien Righteousness
Indeed. An imputation of Another's righteousness, not our own, has taken place. Ours, therefore, is an alien righteousness.
As unbelievers we could only sin more or sin less. As unbelievers, we could not not sin, for even our outward acts and inward thoughts of goodness were all for the wrong motives, not motivated to bring all glory to God. As believers we remain able to sin and now able not to sin.
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He draws all men unto him. He said so. All are forgiven all of their trespasses. Not all have his life because they don't believe the first part. If you do not believe and confess, you are not saved. She does not confess. She confesses lies.
Right. What nang says and hilston and bedeviled57 agree with is perverted. Let me refresh your memory.
Links are likely dead from post purging.
Nang is a horrible human being and I will not be nice to that nasty, wretched, old hag, ever.
Lon
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I try to get to common ground when it comes to the gospel. We all agree we called on the name of the Lord and we all agree Christ planned our Salvation and provided our means to hear it and prepared our hearts before the day came we came to Him or we are either confused (Grace reaches to those without the mental means), or we are not saved. It always hurts my soul when there is a disagreement like it is either/or. I believe it is both.
I realize their are different kinds of Calvinists and Arminians. "All who call" is a salvation verse. This particular verse in Romans 10 demands a Belief and a call for 'saved.' For me, the most important theology is one that takes a scripture that is clear like this, at face value. Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
It seems clear.
In Ephesians 2:8-10, Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
This too seems clear. For me, the best theology is the one that at least tries to embrace both. It seems to me in these discussions, that one or the other are thrown against each other as if one or the other weren't true. Somehow, we all HAVE to get on the same page because there is only one Christ, one Salvation for us.
I'm not sure I've heard all testimonies on TOL. We can tell by testimonies if one has called upon the Name of the Lord. A disagreement between MAD and Calvinism (or other systematic theologies) doesn't tend to be able to discount these verses or erase them from their books. IOW, we all have them so I am always a bit troubled when one doesn't embrace them. What I generally find is rather a salvation 'experience' disagreement. IMHO, we HAVE to agree on how Christ saved us. I am always glad to see threads about salvation. It is and should be an opportunity to lift Him up and glorify Him as the Only Savior. So, I'm troubled with you and also troubled with others when He is ever lost from a discussion of Salvation (sorry for being a bit longwinded here).
Links are likely dead from post purging.
I am working on responding to all with the gospel. I'm not sure it is 'nice.' They often accuse me otherwise, but I try to at least tell them I care about truth and them embracing it. An argument is often necessary so I'd simply encourage you to continue to lift Him up and pray for every clearer ways to do so which might be asking for them to clean their ears. I am always up for hearing scriptures and being corrected by Him. I pray often the same for others. If not, God will have to sort it all out. In Jesus -Lon
Lon
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Quote please? I need to know what I said and where I said it. Thanks. -LonYou missed out your biggest: "you must believe in the trinity".
your welcome
glorydaz
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Hmmmm.....Rather our "righteousness" is not sufficient to cover our unrighteousness.
Ezek. 18:24 KJV But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
But what about the motive to obey our God-given conscience? Romans 2:14KJV We know, innately, what is good and what is evil....our conscience is a powerful thing.
I submit that even unbelievers can have good motives, and not having a clear picture of God or knowing how to reach Him doesn't mean the knowledge of God is not a part of their being.
Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
The problem for unbelievers is that they don't have the power to always perform what is good...they have no Helper.
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Unbelievers Deny Their Terrible State of Affairs
Unbelievers Deny Their Terrible State of Affairs
What "good" the unbeliever does do, helping the old lady across the road, giving to charity, feeding the poor, etc.,, are acts performed without the motive to glorify God, hence sin, sin, sin. These "good" acts are but the restraint of God upon their dry bones for the civic good, else the streets would be running with blood, given the moral inability of the unbeliever to not sin with every breath they draw from the very air God has given them with the lungs He created.
Yes, per Romans 1, the unbeliever knows God exists, but they have suppressed that which they know in unrighteousness, and condemn themselves, hence are without excuse. God the Holy Spirit is not helping all the unbelievers at all. If it were the case, it leads to the conclusion that a person can claim he or she made something of the grace God gave them, while their neighbor did not. After all, are not all persons given this same measure of grace? If so, there is only one conclusion: they were more "special" somehow for making good come from it. If all unbelievers are not given this same measure of grace, then we must explain why God so favors this or that unbeliever with His grace.
The oft-heard "He or she was a good person" when speaking of some unbeliever who has died, comes from a secular humanist mentality that fails to understand the dire state of those not in Christ.
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Unbelievers Deny Their Terrible State of Affairs
This assumes we actually possessed some righteousness as unbelievers. We did not. Our Lord's righteousness is imputed to us. Our sins are imputed to Him. Double imputation is involved in the salvific transaction at the moment we are born anew. Henceforth, we will start actually growing in righteousness in our walk of faith via access to the means of grace (Scripture, the sacraments, prayer, fellowship, and the nurture of the church).
Unbelievers cannot not sin (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14). Unbelievers never have good motives, where "good" here means seeking the righteousness of God.
What "good" the unbeliever does do, helping the old lady across the road, giving to charity, feeding the poor, etc.,, are acts performed without the motive to glorify God, hence sin, sin, sin. These "good" acts are but the restraint of God upon their dry bones for the civic good, else the streets would be running with blood, given the moral inability of the unbeliever to not sin with every breath they draw from the very air God has given them with the lungs He created.
Yes, per Romans 1, the unbeliever knows God exists, but they have suppressed that which they know in unrighteousness, and condemn themselves, hence are without excuse. God the Holy Spirit is not helping all the unbelievers at all. If it were the case, it leads to the conclusion that a person can claim he or she made something of the grace God gave them, while their neighbor did not. After all, are not all persons given this same measure of grace? If so, there is only one conclusion: they were more "special" somehow for making good come from it. If all unbelievers are not given this same measure of grace, then we must explain why God so favors this or that unbeliever with His grace.
The oft-heard "He or she was a good person" when speaking of some unbeliever who has died, comes from a secular humanist mentality that fails to understand the dire state of those not in Christ.
AMR
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All who have Christ and his Gospel have the truth and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus saves and he saves to the uttermost, Hebrews 7:25. But we must come to Christ to receive God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided for us by Jesus Christ, John 1:12.
Jesus saves and he saves to the uttermost, Hebrews 7:25. But we must come to Christ to receive God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided for us by Jesus Christ, John 1:12.
Shasta
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The classic view affirmed in the scripture and taught by the Early Church is that God possesses divine foreknowledge At the same time the ECF emphatically denied determinism as pagan and Gnostic. This same belief is held by many non-reformed evangelicals today and by many who believe in Molinism, at least, as it is taught by William Laine Craig. Open Theism, does not allow for classical foreknowledge in the Biblical sense. In OT God either unilaterally acts or else he forecasts the future decisions of men using His knowledge about them.
I have no idea what Greg Boyd’s latest foray into speculative theology is but I have no respect for him. I think he is a theological lightweight, a closet liberal whose agenda is to humanize God to make Him more marketable to modern audiences. One step towards this end was eliminating eternal punishment. I imagine that this alone added multitudes to his church.
Lon
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Wouldn't you need to quote me as saying such or other for it to actually be irony? :think:
As far as the other, 1 John 5:12 Romans 10:13 We either have or deny the Son. Have the Son.
Lon
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Good presentation. I disagree with your conclusions over the matter as the logic flow of proof just isn't there.
Forgive a short interruption but these two questions may help get both of you through the presentation material and discuss more directly:
1) Is there a 'might' with God? Yes No Other
2) Is there a 'might with man? Yes No Other
Perhaps the 3rd if the answer is 1) No 2) Yes/No --> 3) Is man's 'might' actually a 'might' for God? :think:
Shasta
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As to the grounds of God's knowledge of counterfactuals I suppose the simplest answer is that it comes from His omniscience.
Some of the confusion here is due to the conflation of “decrees” and “commands.” A “decree” CAN mean a unilateral, unconditional, non-negotiable directive. Now God does issue “decrees” of this sort, as when He spoke creation into existence. There were no conditions attached to that directive, but, then again, creation is not a sentient being and has no choice but to situate itself as God directs.
However, God issues another kind of directive to rational beings which I will call “commands.” Such commands are not involuntary but require a voluntary response on the part of His creatures. Municipal law commands us to obey speed limits but a driver is not compelled to follow it. He can disobey albeit not without consequences. Another example of this is God’s moral commandments. Telling men not to commit adultery is not the same thing as making the moon or putting words in the mouth of Balaam’s donkey. By characterizing God’s COMMAND to repent and be saved as a “decree” you have assumed your own premise of “irresistible grace” and thereby committed the logical fallacy of circular reasoning.
When the Bible says God has “commanded all men everywhere to repent” it is not an example of a unilateral “decree” If this were so then, at least, in Calvin’s universe everyone would repent. Rather than face the challenge to Calvin’s theology, however, I suppose the meaning of the text must again be altered.“ALL” must be bereft of it's all inclusiveness so that it means “all of the elect.”
I did not "attempt" to argue for free will I actually did. My points were that the doctrine of “total inability” (AKA “total depravity”) creates a moral universe that is irrational and immoral. Your defense is to present a number of scriptures which you assume provide proof of man’s complete helplessness whereas all they say is that man is corrupt. Yet many who are very corrupt have a desire for freedom from misery, bondage and a hunger for transcendent meaning. The Holy Spirit is the one who makes men aware of their sin and awakens these desires. Again, though, the Spirit can be resisted.