Shasta
Well-known member
Your belief in limited atonement tells me you underrate the value of Christ's sacrifice to the point that it can only cover the sins of a small minority of mankind.
Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Your belief in limited atonement tells me you underrate the value of Christ's sacrifice to the point that it can only cover the sins of a small minority of mankind.
beloved57
Well-known member
You still deny the scripture. Those Christ died for are made righteous, solely by His one obedience Rom 5:19
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beloved57
Well-known member
You deny scripture. Christ had Sheep in His possessed before they heard and believed, before they existed even Jn 10:16
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Shasta
Well-known member
Why does the Bible say we must believe in Christ, that God raised him from the dead in order TO BE saved if people are saved solely by virtue of some predetermined status.
9...if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved (Romans 10:9-10)
The word IF (verse 9) introduces the set of conditions which if fulfilled will result in a person being SAVED (verse 10). If these conditions are not met a person cannot be saved. Neither is a person saved BEFORE the conditions are met. Your doctrine is simply not Biblical.
beloved57
Well-known member
You don't believe the bible. If you want to know more about what I believe then read my threads!
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You are hopelessly lost.
Shasta
Well-known member
Where does it say their existence was in the future?
beloved57
Well-known member
Common reasonableness. If they shall hear His voice, is in the future tense, then duh they will obviously exist in the future to hear His voice.
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Epoisses
New member
It's a myth that a sheep turns into a goat. The sheep even before repentance struggle terribly with their life of sin. The goats may also struggle but they never come to true repentance. God knows the end from the beginning so we are either a sheep or a goat in his eyes.
Eagles Wings
New member
The doctrine of total depravity is a foundational doctrine in regards to salvation. Many deny this doctrine but doing so would be denying God's word (John 8:34, Romans 3:10-11, 8:7, Prov 14:12, 1 Cor 1:18, Jer 17:9, Psalm 51:5, 58:3, Eph 2:1-5, John 3:19)
The sinner is unable and unwilling. The Bible says that he is a block and a stone. He is a rock. He's spiritually dead and blind. He is in the darkness. He is alienated from the life of God. He does not desire seek or want God.
There is no way to get to the right decision to activate the atonement on his behalf if it depends on him.
We have a major problem if we think that the sinner has the where-with-all within himself to crawl up out of his own spiritual casket or spiritual blindness to overturn the normal lusts of his own heart and somehow make the right move toward Christ independently.
The sinner CAN'T WILL IT and he couldn't do it if he could will it.
You can't make the final decision of the atonement up to the sinner or you have Jesus dying for everybody in general and nobody in particular and therefore you have redefined what it means that he purchased us.
This notion that God loved everyone so much that he gave his Son for everybody but only in some kind of limited way, some kind of marginal way, some kind of half way is contrary to what the Bible teaches.
The idea that God has done in full for the people in hell the very same thing he's done for the people in heaven is just not possible.
Salvation is THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT ALONE and not through a free will choice. (John 1:13) Not by a will of man but by WILL OF GOD. (Eph 2:8-9, 1 Cor 1:30)
The sinner is unable and unwilling. The Bible says that he is a block and a stone. He is a rock. He's spiritually dead and blind. He is in the darkness. He is alienated from the life of God. He does not desire seek or want God.
There is no way to get to the right decision to activate the atonement on his behalf if it depends on him.
We have a major problem if we think that the sinner has the where-with-all within himself to crawl up out of his own spiritual casket or spiritual blindness to overturn the normal lusts of his own heart and somehow make the right move toward Christ independently.
The sinner CAN'T WILL IT and he couldn't do it if he could will it.
You can't make the final decision of the atonement up to the sinner or you have Jesus dying for everybody in general and nobody in particular and therefore you have redefined what it means that he purchased us.
This notion that God loved everyone so much that he gave his Son for everybody but only in some kind of limited way, some kind of marginal way, some kind of half way is contrary to what the Bible teaches.
The idea that God has done in full for the people in hell the very same thing he's done for the people in heaven is just not possible.
Salvation is THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT ALONE and not through a free will choice. (John 1:13) Not by a will of man but by WILL OF GOD. (Eph 2:8-9, 1 Cor 1:30)
Shasta
Well-known member
I wanted to verify that you were saying all these sheep existed in the future and He was not talking solely about people who existed in His day. However, since hearing his voice is one mark of being a sheep a person cannot be sheep before that event happens - which has been my point all along.
beloved57
Well-known member
Falcons :rotfl:
Shasta
Well-known member
Total Depravity as a synonym for "total inability" was not a belief of the Early Church until the fifth century when Augustine of Hippo introduced the idea into Western Christianity from Manichaeism, a cult he had belonged to before his conversion. In the three hundred years before him the Early Church fathers never interpreted the teachings of the Bible to mean that man could make no choice. Instead the unanimously and directly affirmed "free will" which did not mean man's will was unrestrained and uninfluenced only that he could make a choice. The Reformer's doctrines came directly from Augustine. The denial of inability is not a denial that man is depraved. It is not an assertion that without the aid of the Spirit men will come to God. It is certainly not the belief that man by his own power can be good enough to be acceptable to God. All of these are straw men.
The Spirit is in the world, working to convince men that they are sinners, to draw men to Christ and to
convince them that Jesus is who He said He was and did what the Bible said He did. Because of this we can listen and yield to the Spirit but we can also resist Him.
But no one in my camp says we do that independently. This is another misconception. In fact, even after we are saved, we cannot behave like Christ or do His will without depending on the Spirit.
The idea is that the price He paid on the cross is sufficient for anyone and everyone but that people must believe before it is efficacious for them. This would have to be the case if one is to keep the universal call of the gospel intact. Otherwise we end up reading all sorts of presuppositions into the text that no one saw for many centuries.
God did not measure out the exact weight of the sins of the "elect" balance that against an exact amount of suffering Christ endured balancing it so parsimoniously that no redemption would be available to anyone else. How could Christ's suffering be so measured and meted out? It is impossible. He paid an infinite price and because of that, anyone who can be brought to believe in Him can avail themselves of the benefits. This makes God both just and merciful. I do not see this as about "everyone in general but no one in particular." Christ's death could save anyone - unless they have already been judged. In that case they have already received either punishment or reward. Your remarks on people in the hereafter thus do not make any sense to me.
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But man has to yield to the Spirit's influence. That is everywhere in scripture. Anyone, believers as well as unbelievers can resist, quench and grieve the Holy Spirit and by that means block God's good intentions towards us. If it ALL depended solely on the Spirit then He could not be resisted. Every time He called, pleaded, through the prophets and apostles, Israel would have turned from their sins. You speak as if man having a will were somehow a challenge to God's "sovereignty" but when God made man He made a being in His own image who had the power to think and make choices. Adam immediately demonstrated this by making the wrong choice.
Shasta
Well-known member
So hearing His voice is not part of being his sheep?
No one seeks God (Ro 3:11). He enables men to have: eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to understand (Is 6:10). The Calvinist says: that offer was just for me because I'm God's darling elite. :freak: The historical, biblical Christian
oly: understands that this offer has gone out to the whole world (Jn 3:16).He doesn't say you could not. He says you would not: How often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Lk 13:34
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