BRXII Battle talk

[Balder]

"Now, I'm not sure if you got my point." Most likely because you haven't really thought about how sin stains a person's soul.

Actually, I've thought long and hard about sin and suffering and the human condition. Sin is not really a substance, it's an activity, so it's not really accurate to say that it "stains" the soul. However, I would agree that negative thoughts do impact and leave traces in the body and mind, in the form of contracted patterns.

I don't think you've thought enough about the nature of our existence, in which all things are in flux, with an openness at the heart of all things -- which means nothing is ever permanently "fixed" in any condition. Everything exists interdependently, and this very impermanence of manifest patterns is what allows for "going astray" or "being transformed" in the first place.

People aren't damned because of hate or ignorance, they are damned for unrepentant sin.

So, is eternal damnation a self-inflicted condition, or an active form of punishment, imposed from without?

And no one is trying to take away your false hope the Creator God is lying to you about being judged on your own merit.

Really?

Once again, the cruelty you see is being misplaced. Men sin, men do not repent, men are judged guilty, men take that guilt with them into their eternity. Is it that you just can not understand that point or is it you don't want to?

I think you are overlooking something here. If you believe that people exist in a condition of conscious torment forever, and that there is no possibility of repentance or salvation after judgment because God has closed the door on them, then God is an active "player" in their eternal suffering. He sustains them in that benighted condition forever, and actively chooses to ignore them in their suffering after a specific point in time. If people have the ability to repent in hell, and he ignores them, that's something he is actively doing. If people do not have the ability to repent or change, and he chooses to allow them to continue to exist consciously in that condition of torment forever and ever, that is also something he is actively choosing to do.

I am saying that either choice is cruel.

 

[Nineveh]

Sin is not really a substance, it's an activity, so it's not really accurate to say that it "stains" the soul.

I've had a guilty conscience that says you are wrong.

I don't think you've thought enough about the nature of our existence, in which all things are in flux, with an openness at the heart of all things -- which means nothing is ever permanently "fixed" in any condition. Everything exists interdependently, and this very impermanence of manifest patterns is what allows for "going astray" or "being transformed" in the first place.

I was "fixed" in sinning until I "opened" my heart to the Creator Who showed me I was indeed sinning.

So, is eternal damnation a self-inflicted condition, or an active form of punishment, imposed from without?

When men refuse to repent, God places them in the Lake. Their torment is their own making.

Really?

The best anyone can do is warn you, you have rejected their warnings. You cling to your false hopes, so who can stop you?

I think you are overlooking something here. If you believe that people exist in a condition of conscious torment forever, and that there is no possibility of repentance or salvation after judgment because God has closed the door on them, then God is an active "player" in their eternal suffering.

He is an active player in their redemption. Men choose to be apart from Him, so ... He's let's them be.

He sustains them in that benighted condition forever, and actively chooses to ignore them in their suffering after a specific point in time. If people have the ability to repent in hell, and he ignores them, that's something he is actively doing.

Jesus describes the place as a garbage dump. While I'm sure at some point you have meditated on the garbage in the dump, that doesn't mean God must.

If people do not have the ability to repent or change, and he chooses to allow them to continue to exist consciously in that condition of torment forever and ever, that is also something he is actively choosing to do.

Something He has actively chosen to do is die for you so you don't have to go there and be apart from Him in that place. If you choose to be there, God is not going to stand in your way.

I am saying that either choice is cruel.

Yes, when men refuse to repent and choose to spend eternity with their sin, it seems that way.

 

[logos_x]

well...people believe in eternal torment, and say anyone that questions it is wrong. And, it doesn't matter what is provided as evidence against it...it's just considered wrong. And then you are called a heretic and a false teacher for your efforts.

By now that has been very much demonstrated...and I hope that this thread proves fruitful in making people realize what has been going on for the past 1500 in the church.

Everyone...have a wonderful day! :wave2:

 

[Balder]

I've had a guilty conscience that says you are wrong.

Non sequitur. Having a guilty conscience does not depend on sin being a "substance."

I was "fixed" in sinning until I "opened" my heart to the Creator Who showed me I was indeed sinning.

If you were really "fixed" in sin, you never could have opened your heart to your Creator.

When men refuse to repent, God places them in the Lake. Their torment is their own making.

Is there fire in the lake or not? Anyway, God throws living beings into a place where they're going to feel lots of pain, possibly being burned alive first, or possibly burning forever, depending on who you ask.

He is an active player in their redemption. Men choose to be apart from Him, so ... He's let's them be.

Will these people choose to be apart from him and to suffer forever, or will he simply ignore them even if they change their minds?

Jesus describes the place as a garbage dump. While I'm sure at some point you have meditated on the garbage in the dump, that doesn't mean God must.

I'm not saying what he must do. I'm saying if he chooses not to, that is a moral choice. And a cruel one.

Something He has actively chosen to do is die for you so you don't have to go there and be apart from Him in that place. If you choose to be there, God is not going to stand in your way.

I don't believe anyone would choose to suffer forever in unimaginable conscious torment. Some of us refuse to believe that there is a God who would "set up" the rules of the game such that that was a possibility for any of his creatures.

 

[Aimiel]

... I hope that this thread proves fruitful it making people realize what has been going on for the past 1500 in the church.

The Lord, Who established the faith His church is built upon, is far more important than what we've done or not done with what He said. He is The One Who described hell, and gave us revelation of the Lake of Fire. Thank God that He did, that many might escape it. Those who promote His enemy's words, "You shall not surely die," may thank him for their end, though they won't be able to do so, since I believe they will be held to far stricter standards in The Lord's Court than what we hold here on earth, and won't be permitted to even speak. I actually believe that their own guilt will hold them completely silent. I also sincerely hope that you have a nice afterlife, should you repent.

 

[Nineveh]

Non sequitur. Having a guilty conscience does not depend on sin being a "substance."

Guess you missed my point. Sins reside on the soul.

If you were really "fixed" in sin, you never could have opened your heart to your Creator.

Without the Law I would never have been set free.

Will these people choose to be apart from him and to suffer forever, or will he simply ignore them even if they change their minds?

Balder, sitting right where you are now, you are without excuse. Your heart is made up. Unless you repent and accept Christ Who is the Only One who can cleanse you, you will find further reason to hate God when He sends you where you want to be, not less.

I don't believe anyone would choose to suffer forever in unimaginable conscious torment. Some of us refuse to believe that there is a God who would "set up" the rules of the game such that that was a possibility for any of his creatures.

Right. Some feel they are wiser/smarter/more righteous than God. It makes them feel better to cling to a false hope they will escape what they have earned.

 

[PKevman]

Actually the debate has not been going on for "1500 years". For most of time the orthodox church has utterly rejected Universalism.

 

[logos_x]

Actually the debate has not been going on for "1500 years". For most of time the orthodox church has utterly rejected Universalism.

How is 1500 years not most of the time?

And, see posts 1563 and 1564. Thank you.

 

[Balder]

Right. Some feel they are wiser/smarter/more righteous than God. It makes them feel better to cling to a false hope they will escape what they have earned.

No. I refuse to believe that God is less wise/smart/moral than me. I refuse to believe that he would treat sentient beings with such cruelty and callous disregard.

 

[Kimberlyann]

No. I refuse to believe that God is less wise/smart/moral than me. I refuse to believe that he would treat sentient beings with such cruelty and callous disregard.

I totally agree! :thumb:

 

[PKevman]

No. I refuse to believe that God is less wise/smart/moral than me. I refuse to believe that he would treat sentient beings with such cruelty and callous disregard.

Then sorry but you have a crafted a God of your own choosing.

 

[PKevman]

It is this refusal to believe anything presented that prevents people from accepting what God's Word clearly says on the subject.

On another note, isn't it interesting that this thread has gone on now for pages and pages, and very little of the Battle Talk thread has actually been about information presented and discussed in the Battle Royale?

 

[Balder]

Then sorry but you have a crafted a God of your own choosing.

No, I've rejected a God that other people have crafted.

 

[Redfin]

No. I refuse to believe that God is less wise/smart/moral than me. I refuse to believe that he would treat sentient beings with such cruelty and callous disregard.

This is a point I've been thinking about for some time...

Some folks at TOL have accused Christian Universalists of trying to be "nicer than God." The phrase I'm more familiar with is "gooder'n God."

It's actually just the opposite.

Christian Universalists (and others) actually believe that God must be "gooder" than us, and refuse to believe that He would ever stoop to do things that are morally inferior to what many humans would consider doing.

"Gooder'n God" is impossible. God is better than anything we can imagine. He is not only better than what the Eternal Tormenters imagine, he is better than the Christian Universalists imagine.

Don't be fooled by the "nicer than God" strawman. :think:

 

[Balder]

This is a point I've been thinking about for some time...

Some folks at TOL have accused Christian Universalists of trying to be "nicer than God." The phrase I'm more familiar with is "gooder'n God."

It's actually just the opposite.

Christian Universalists (and others) actually believe that God must be "gooder" than us, and refuse to believe that He would ever stoop to do things that are morally inferior to what many humans would consider doing.

"Gooder'n God" is impossible. God is better than anything we can imagine. He is not only better than what the Eternal Tormenters imagine, he is better than the Christian Universalists imagine.

Don't be fooled by the "nicer than God" strawman. :think:

Amen.

 

[PKevman]

No, I've rejected a God that other people have crafted.

I give you points for making a good response, but this is not just about having a response for everything someone says my friend. I want to encourage you to consider the claims that the Lord Jesus Christ made about His own self and the clear statements He made about where and how unbelievers will spend eternity. I have supplied plenty of these throughout the BR and this debate but would be willing to do so again for your benefit if you like. I am sorry if I come off as uppity sometimes, it is not my intentions. I love the Lord and I love the Bible and I will always defend it.

God bless you and you are in my prayers Balder.

 

[Nineveh]

No. I refuse to believe that God is less wise/smart/moral than me.

Good!

I refuse to believe that he would treat sentient beings with such cruelty and callous disregard.

It appears what you refuse to acknowledge is you too are part of that "all" that have sinned. You really aren't all that pure and blameless.

 

[Balder]

Good!

It appears what you refuse to acknowledge is you too are part of that "all" that have sinned. You really aren't all that pure and blameless.

Hardly. I fully recognize that I am not pure and blameless. But imperfect as I am, I would not do what you claim God will do, and since even an imperfect person like me would balk at such cruelty, I expect a perfectly good and just being to be even better than my own standards.

Not worse.

 

[Nineveh]

Hardly. I fully recognize that I am not pure and blameless.

How do you go about getting "clean"?

But imperfect as I am, I would not do what you claim God will do

God merely lets you decide if you want to be with Him or without Him. It's still up to you, balder.

and since even an imperfect person like me would balk at such cruelty, I expect a perfectly good and just being to be even better than my own standards.

You make up your own standards balder, God is Just.

Not worse.

At this point, you get to be with all the other people who think they know better than the Righteous Creator God.

 

[Aimiel]

If the Lake of Fire is going to 'cleanse' or purge un-believers into believers, then why did God bother sending His Son to die? Why not just wait for all the filthy sinners to be cleaned up by the lake? Doesn't make any sense to me. :think: