BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

You're right. I teach the Bible. I teach God's Word. That is what I have been called to teach and to defend.

I know. And, I'm trying to show you where you aren't teaching it.

 

[Balder]

But you don't believe the Bible to be God's Word so it is pointless to even discuss the issue with you. This entire debate was again centered around what does the Bible say about whether unbelievers spend eternity in the Lake of Fire or not. My arguments are based purely on what the Bible says.

So, you don't have a response to my arguments, then.

If you are interested in testifying about the "good news" to the lost of the world, Pastor, then you should be prepared to answer honest criticisms of the story you are presenting. Particularly when your interpretation of what the Bible "says" is not exclusive.

If your interpretation results in the sort of monstrous story I've been trying to expose here, then perhaps you need to think further about your interpretation.

Or just call those people into your church who are insensitive enough that they will be satisfied if THEY can be saved, and are willing to have their memories expunged so that they can get on with the business of enjoying heaven while so many sentient beings suffer in eternal conscious torment.

 

[PKevman]

So, you don't have a response to my arguments, then.

I have responded to everything you have said. If you are afraid to answer the question it must show something about your theology. A simple question. If I tell my child that if he touches the hot burner he will be burned and he touches it. Whose fault is it? How can you reason about eternal things when you won't even reason about simple things?

If you are interested in testifying about the "good news" to the lost of the world, Pastor, then you should be prepared to answer honest criticisms of the story you are presenting.

The "story" I am presenting comes directly from God's Word. The good news that we proclaim to the world is that Jesus Christ saves souls and made a way out of the Lake of Fire. Take His way and go to Heaven. Spit on His glorious sacrifice and go to the Lake of Fire. The choice is yours to make and YOU will be the one responsible for YOUR choice. Not me. Not God. YOU.

Particularly when your interpretation of what the Bible "says" is not exclusive.

Interpretations are different from quoting directly what it says.

If your interpretation results in the sort of monstrous story I've been trying to expose here, then perhaps you need to think further about your interpretation.

The only thing you have exposed further is your hatred for God's Word.

 

[Kimberlyann]

"There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I've always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic." -Mother Teresa

 

[PKevman]

I know. And, I'm trying to show you where you aren't teaching it.

You have not done that. Not even close.

 

[PKevman]

Which questions would you like me to answer? I didn't answer the "whose fault is that" question because I thought your analogy was faulty.

We're not dealing with someone who sticks their hand in a fire to see what it's like.

We're dealing with an omnipotent being, who could choose to "settle" things in any number of ways (and I could think of a few, and world religions give examples of other possible ways), but who instead decides to lock a good portion of his creations in conditions of inescapable, conscious torment, in a fiery place of punishment and pain that he himself built. It's not like it's just something naturally occurring there that you warn people about. It's something God himself designed and built, with the intention of throwing sentient beings into it. AFTER giving them bodies which are imperishable, thus ensuring that they will not simply perish or be annihilated, but will instead suffer forever.

That is the picture you are trying to sell me and others like me. The story of a loving sacrifice to deliver people from a very cruel fate which God himself designed, supervises, and perpetually sustains, loses its weight and beauty because of the sadistic horror of the story within which it is set.

I also gave you the analogy of a prison being built which you never responded to because you want to blame God that people spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. You know in your heart that you are wrong and that is why you won't answer an easy and honest question with a simple answer. Is the mayor who builds the prison at fault if people go there? No they don't have to go there is the only answer that a logical person would say. They don't have to commit those wicked crimes.

God created the Lake of Fire for the devil and his angels. God was grieved when man chose rebellion as well. But when man chose to rebel, man sealed his place there as well. God loved man enough to give His own Son Jesus Christ so that man would not have to go there. You are spitting on the sacrifice of God's Son and trying to blame Him for it?

Men don't have to go there if they will humble themselves and accept God's way instead of their own. That's the bottom line and that is a message of great hope.

 

[PKevman]

If they reject God's way out, they have nobody to blame but themselves. Bottom line.

 

[Balder]

I have responded to everything you have said. If you are afraid to answer the question it must show something about your theology. A simple question. If I tell my child that if he touches the hot burner he will be burned and he touches it. Whose fault is it? How can you reason about eternal things when you won't even reason about simple things?

As I have said, your simple story is inappropriate. If you purposefully leave the burner on, and if you force your child's hand down onto it every time he misbehaves, that would be a closer analogy. Then whose fault is it, if the child gets 3rd degree burns?

But to answer your question: Yes, if the child touches something you've warned him not to touch, that is indeed his fault. Unfortunately, that little story leaves so much out, and the devil is in the details.

In this case, it is the beast that presides over the condemnation of sentient beings to eternal conscious torment.

 

[PKevman]

But to answer your question: Yes, if the child touches something you've warned him not to touch, that is indeed his fault. Unfortunately, that little story leaves so much out, and the devil is in the details.

And if a mayor builds a prison for the detainment of hard core criminals, is the mayor to blame that those criminals commit wicked crimes and go there?

 

[logos_x]

You have not done that. Not even close.

Kevin, I like you, and I respect you. But, you think what I am saying is garbage...and that makes it impossible to persuade you of anything. But, I ask you, have I attempted in any way to remove you from Christ? Have I tried to shake your faith in the least?

All I've done is argue for Christ being more successful than you dared ever imagine before.

I'm sorry this has you so upset. But, all I'm doing is sharing what I believe here.

What you think is garbage I believe to be the teaching of the Bible. I think there are some very real and not imagined theological problems with the doctrine of eternal torment and with the defense of it. You don't...and you think that Christian Universal Salvation is something you must refute at all costs...for whatever reason.

You seem to have invested yourself in proving that Hell is permanant and undefeatable.
Please forgive me if I try to prove that idea wrong.

 

[Balder]

I also gave you the analogy of a prison being built which you never responded to because you want to blame God that people spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. You know in your heart that you are wrong and that is why you won't answer an easy and honest question with a simple answer. Is the mayor who builds the prison at fault if people go there? No they don't have to go there is the only answer that a logical person would say. They don't have to commit those wicked crimes.

God created the Lake of Fire for the devil and his angels. God was grieved when man chose rebellion as well. But when man chose to rebel, man sealed his place there as well. God loved man enough to give His own Son Jesus Christ so that man would not have to go there. You are spitting on the sacrifice of God's Son and trying to blame Him for it?

Men don't have to go there if they will humble themselves and accept God's way instead of their own. That's the bottom line and that is a message of great hope.

I have tried to replace your analogies with different ones because I think your analogies only work in little vacuum sealed packages, not when you take the rest of the "story" into account.

For instance, Christians also teach that it is impossible for human beings not to sin; it is impossible for any of us to live the kind of righteous life God demands. So, in this case, the mayor builds a furnace and throws citizens into it for failing to live up to standards that are, in fact, impossible for them to live up to...

 

[PKevman]

I have tried to replace your analogies with different ones because I think your analogies only work in little vacuum sealed packages, not when you take the rest of the "story" into account.

For instance, Christians also teach that it is impossible for human beings not to sin; it is impossible for any of us to live the kind of righteous life God demands. So, in this case, the mayor builds a furnace and throws citizens into it for failing to live up to standards that are, in fact, impossible for them to live up to...

You're forgetting the most important part.

God provided the way out with His own Son's life.

 

[PKevman]

God knew the hoplessness of the situation so He insterted hope. Stephen if you and I only disagree on the eternality of the Lake of Fire, then why do pagans so easily and readily identify with Universalists and get their thumbs up and praise while I get their scorn?

 

[logos_x]

And if a mayor builds a prison for the detainment of hard core criminals, is the mayor to blame that those criminals commit wicked crimes and go there?

What if the mayor had to raise the dead in order to incarcerate them there, and made it a permanent incarceration regardless of any change of heart or mind in the future, made it the most inhumane environment imaginable, and pretended they never existed at all?

Punishing criminals is one thing....creating a place that is never ending and the worst envoronment that could be imaginable (or not)...would be the mayors fault.

 

[logos_x]

God knew the hoplessness of the situation so He insterted hope. Stephen if you and I only disagree on the eternality of the Lake of Fire, then why do pagans so easily and readily identify with Universalists and get their thumbs up and praise while I get their scorn?

Maybe it is the doctrine of eternal torment that causes them to be unable to accept Christ.

 

[Balder]

Not for everyone, Kevin. There are millions of human beings who have died who have never even heard of Jesus or YHWH. But they're all getting the same eternal punishment....

But besides this fact, the "way out" is from a monstrous fate that God himself designed and which he oversees (eternal torment in a Lake of Fire in imperishable bodies). That was my point several posts back. And the monstrosity of the overall story, in which God is directly involved, diminishes the impact of the "gift" he is offering. "If you love my son, I won't burn you alive forever...."

 

[PKevman]

I have tried to replace your analogies with different ones because I think your analogies only work in little vacuum sealed packages, not when you take the rest of the "story" into account.

For instance, Christians also teach that it is impossible for human beings not to sin; it is impossible for any of us to live the kind of righteous life God demands. So, in this case, the mayor builds a furnace and throws citizens into it for failing to live up to standards that are, in fact, impossible for them to live up to...

Well supposedly Balder, Christian Universalists would disagree with you on this statement and say that God did in fact create a Lake of Fire but it is not eternal. They say that sins are judged in the Lake of Fire for a period of "ages". We will see if they have the courage to stand up to your error.

 

[Kimberlyann]

God knew the hoplessness of the situation so He insterted hope. Stephen if you and I only disagree on the eternality of the Lake of Fire, then why do pagans so easily and readily identify with Universalists and get their thumbs up and praise while I get their scorn?

Perhaps because the pagans have human empathy? Maybe they actually love their neighbor and don't think they will someday rejoice to see their fellow man thrown in to a fiery pit to be tortured forever.

 

[PKevman]

Not for everyone, Kevin. There are millions of human beings who have died who have never even heard of Jesus or YHWH. But they're all getting the same eternal punishment....

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

If any person seeks God God will make Himself known to them. And ALL men have a knowledge of God whether they admit it or not. Sorry but your argument is clearly refuted by Scripture. Being on TOL I would bet someone has shown you that verse before, though and you have had this answer given to you before though, haven't you?

But besides this fact, the "way out" is from a monstrous fate that God himself designed

For the devil and his angels. God originally designed it for the devil and his angels because they sinned. Man sealed his own judgment when he chose to follow suit. God made the way out for man because He loves man. God didn't make that way out for the fallen angels however. Good thing He loves us!

and which he oversees (eternal torment in a Lake of Fire in imperishable bodies). That was my point several posts back.

And it was a point that was refuted several posts back by the clear truth that you refuse to see by your own choice.

And the monstrosity of the overall story, in which God is directly involved, diminishes the impact of the "gift" he is offering.

Nothing you can say can diminish the impact of that wonderful gift. Nothing.

"If you love my son, I won't burn you alive forever...."

If you reject His Son's sacrifice for your sins you will have to pay the penalty for them yourself.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Well supposedly Balder, Christian Universalists would disagree with you on this statement and say that God did in fact create a Lake of Fire but it is not eternal. They say that sins are judged in the Lake of Fire for a period of "ages". We will see if they have the courage to stand up to your error.

What you are forgetting is that many universalists don't believe its a literal fire.