BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

Hi Logos,

Long time no post. I've had some challenges come into my life and I've had to take a
leave of absence. Pastor and I have talked about this Battle Royale and I'm looking forward to reading it all, but my post might not be timely.

I have a problem with two of the early church leaders you quoted or I really should say,
I have problems with the quotes.

OK

St. Jerome stated that the Universe is to "be restored into their original harmonious state", but John tells us in Rev. 21 that "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away". And that's not mentioning what he said about being made into one body, again contradicting Scripture.

Well...I'm not sure what you are asking here.
Are you saying that the new creation will not be in in a harmonious state and we will never be one in God?
I'm not sure where you get this idea or where you think what he said contradicts scripture...unless it has something to do with the word "restored". If this is the case I refer you to Acts 3:21.

With the quote from Gregory of Nyssa, and I'll repost it "For it is evident that
God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created
being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord;
when every creature shall have been made one body" he is saying that God cannot be
all in all until there is no evil. Poppycock. God is all in all now, if He weren't, He would
be an impotent god, not the Omnimpotent God that He is. Quoting men that deny
Scripture and deny God is not a good way to start your round. I look forward, if you have
time to respond, to your comments. God bless you.

How do you define evil?

Please point out where you think these men denied scripture and deny God.

 

[logos_x]

Where is your evidence that the lake of fire is evil. Evil is actove opisition to Gods will. The lake of fire and those to be cast into it are Gods will as proclaimed by Jesus in Mathew 25.

Hell is not an evil punishment, it is a just punishment handed down by a just God.

:kookoo:

 

[CabinetMaker]

:kookoo:

No evidence? Or is it just easier to call me kookoo and hope I'll go away>

 

[logos_x]

Where is your evidence that the lake of fire is evil. Evil is actove opisition to Gods will. The lake of fire and those to be cast into it are Gods will as proclaimed by Jesus in Mathew 25.

Hell is not an evil punishment, it is a just punishment handed down by a just God.

If Hell is eternal then it most certainly is set in opposition to God's will...AND if punishment is not corrective and remedial....then it is sadistic, insatiable abuse.

Why does a parent punish a child? FOR THEIR GOOD. If not... well your local law enforcement agency just might be interested in talking to those parents.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Paul says creation is eagerly waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. Why? Because creation itself will be set free from its bondage into the freedom of the children of God.

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together * until now.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees ? (Romans 8:19-24 NASB)

 

[CabinetMaker]

If Hell is eternal then it most certainly is set in opposition to God's will...AND if punishment is not corrective and remedial....then it is sadistic, insatiable abuse.

If God said (and He did Mathew 25 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.) that He is going to do something (flood the earth maybe) and then does it, how is that set in opposition to Gods will? Also, and this is hard for people to grasp, you DO NOT go to hell for your sins. Got that, you are not punished for your sins. Instead, God has laid a choice before you, spend eternity in heaven with God and enjoy the good life or spend eternity away from God in a place that has no possibility of the good life. You go to the place of your own choosing.

Why does a parent punish a child? FOR THEiR GOOD. If not... well your local law enforcement agency just might be interested in talking to those parents.

Our sins carry consequences. We are forgiven but when we sin there are generally consequences. What happens after we die is not based on our sins, it is based on our faith. If our faith is correctly placed in Jesus, the after life is sweet. If we refuse to accept Jesus then the after life is hotter than Hell.

The lake of fire burning forever and ever is not evil, it was created in accordance with God's will so it cannot be evil. Its purpose and those who suffer it must be under Gods wrath that God has only set aside for a while.

 

[logos_x]

If God said (and He did Mathew 25 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.) that He is going to do something (flood the earth maybe) and then does it, how is that set in opposition to Gods will? Also, and this is hard for people to grasp, you DO NOT go to hell for your sins. Got that, you are not punished for your sins. Instead, God has laid a choice before you, spend eternity in heaven with God and enjoy the good life or spend eternity away from God in a place that has no possibility of the good life. You go to the place of your own choosing.


Our sins carry consequences. We are forgiven but when we sin there are generally consequences. What happens after we die is not based on our sins, it is based on our faith. If our faith is correctly placed in Jesus, the after life is sweet. If we refuse to accept Jesus then the after life is hotter than Hell.

The lake of fire burning forever and ever is not evil, it was created in accordance with God's will so it cannot be evil. Its purpose and those who suffer it must be under Gods wrath that God has only set aside for a while.

That is your final answer?

 

[PKevman]

Ok Regis!

 

[red77]

If God said (and He did Mathew 25 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.) that He is going to do something (flood the earth maybe) and then does it, how is that set in opposition to Gods will? Also, and this is hard for people to grasp, you DO NOT go to hell for your sins. Got that, you are not punished for your sins. Instead, God has laid a choice before you, spend eternity in heaven with God and enjoy the good life or spend eternity away from God in a place that has no possibility of the good life. You go to the place of your own choosing.

Hang on......you say we arent punished for our sins? Then supposing that God didnt give the ultimate scarifice of his son then what would have happened then...? Where would people go with no saviour? i was under the impression that traditionally its sin that separates us from God so with no saviour wouldnt your theology claim that hell would be the place you'd end up?

Our sins carry consequences. We are forgiven but when we sin there are generally consequences. What happens after we die is not based on our sins, it is based on our faith. If our faith is correctly placed in Jesus, the after life is sweet. If we refuse to accept Jesus then the after life is hotter than Hell.

The lake of fire burning forever and ever is not evil, it was created in accordance with God's will so it cannot be evil. Its purpose and those who suffer it must be under Gods wrath that God has only set aside for a while.

If there was no sin then what need for a saviour from it? You bring it all down to black and white 'faith' and I think God knows how fallible and weak we can be as human beings including the tests of faith everyone has no matter what creed they belong to.....you can claim an eternal lake of fire is not evil as much as you wish - you dont believe for one second you'll be suffering the agonies as much as all those who believe in eternal torment dont, by its definition you have to believe you're spared from such a thing!

 

[ChasClean]

CM,

You said:

There is no good in it. Thats the point. It is no good at all and should be avoided!

Then you said:

Where is your evidence that the lake of fire is evil. Evil is actove opisition to Gods will. The lake of fire and those to be cast into it are Gods will as proclaimed by Jesus in Mathew 25.

Hell is not an evil punishment, it is a just punishment handed down by a just God.

I will be a little more direct than Logos.

On the one hand you say there is no good in eternal punishment. It is no good at all.

Then you say the Lake of Fire is not evil. You say hell is not evil.

Do you see the problem?

 

[ChasClean]

PK,

Could you please respond to this earlier post?

You said:

Quote:
Another premise that I will seek to establish is this: IF the Lake of Fire were not eternal, then the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, a perfect, sinless, and eternal being, would not have been necessary! In other words a temporary punishment would require a lesser sacrifice then the sacrifice of an eternal, divine being!

I said:

Death is a serious, eternal penalty

Regardless of the reality of the Lake of Fire, the fact that our death is not a good enough reason for Jesus to die is mind boggling. It must be because so many Christians don’t think we truly die.

Thank you.

 

[ChasClean]

After this life on earth, it is too late to change your mind! God has given us enough chances. When we physically die, we cannot say to God, "Actually, I have changed my mind! Now that I have seen that you are real, and that those Christians were right about Heaven and Hell, I would like to be let in to Heaven!" Its too late.

Let me get this straight.

We can't change our minds. We, who are constantly changing suddenly aren't allowed to change anymore.

But God, who never changes, suddenly changes. He who is merciful forever, suddenly has no more mercy.

Just when someone finally gets a chance to see God as He really is. No more through a glass darkly. He is finally going to be clear. And then…

WHAM!

He changes. Seems a little unorthodox to me. And there’s another adjective to describe God suddenly changing. Oh what is it?

Horrible. Yeah that’s it. Horrible.

 

[ChasClean]

Jason,

Your definition of this word and its related idiomatic phrase (age of the ages), as only meaning eternal "if it is associated with something (or Someone) that lasts forever" is a clever device you've invented to allow you to evade its plain meaning in any passages in which you don't desire it to have that meaning.

What I have a hard time understanding is why some ET believers have such a desire for "aionios" to mean "forever" when talking about punishment. They know it doesn’t have to. They know there is a whole lot of reasonable consistent evidence that God is a discipliner for the sake of restoration. Just like any good parent.

But no, "aionios" has to mean "forever".

No it doesn’t. It only means forever,

if you desire it to have that meaning.

 

[Granite]

I find the entire discussion grotesque, absurd, and repulsive. Reminds me of that discussion the two interrogators had in THX1138 talking about the mundane while watching Robert Duvall writhing in agony.

 

[Zadok]

What I have a hard time understanding is why some ET believers have such a desire for "aionios" to mean "forever" when talking about punishment. They know it doesn’t have to. They know there is a whole lot of reasonable consistent evidence that God is a discipliner for the sake of restoration. Just like any good parent.

Think of it this way Charles: our Father, the Father of all fathers, disciplines for one purpose and one purpose only, retribution. Punishment is the source, and the goal. :dizzy: Do you have children? What is the purpose of punishment with our children? Yes indeed, not rectitude, not transformation, not change, not the peaceable fruits of righteous but wrath, wrath, wrath. To all such fathers..... :banned:

 

[Zadok]

"Many of God's children do not understand that God is actually and truly their Father. They think of Him as a stern Judge, or severe Taskmaster, or at the best as an unapproachable dignitary, seated on a far-off throne, dispensing exacting laws for a frightened and trembling world; and in their terror lest they should fail to meet His requirements they hardly know which way to turn. But of a God who is a Father, tender, and loving, and full of compassion, a God who like a father, will be on their side against the whole universe they have no conception." -Hannah W. Smith-

 

[PKevman]

Death is a serious, eternal penalty

Regardless of the reality of the Lake of Fire, the fact that our death is not a good enough reason for Jesus to die is mind boggling. It must be because so many Christians don’t think we truly die.

Chas, between work, family, ministry, and the Battle Royale, I have quite a bit going on. If I miss some question you have I apologize. To answer your question, physical death is not eternal. It is temporary. Spiritual death is what is eternal. If men were not going to spend eternity separated from God, then the sacrifice of an eternal, divine being was completely unnecessary!

God bless!

 

[PKevman]

Think of it this way Charles: our Father, the Father of all fathers, disciplines for one purpose and one purpose only, retribution. Punishment is the source, and the goal. Do you have children? What is the purpose of punishment with our children? Yes indeed, not rectitude, not transformation, not change, not the peaceable fruits of righteous but wrath, wrath, wrath. To all such fathers

God's children do not go the Lake of Fire Zadok. God's children spend eternity with Him in Heaven.

 

[Zadok]

Think of it this way Charles: our Father, the Father of all fathers, disciplines for one purpose and one purpose only, retribution. Punishment is the source, and the goal. :dizzy: Do you have children? What is the purpose of punishment with our children? Yes indeed, not rectitude, not transformation, not change, not the peaceable fruits of righteous but wrath, wrath, wrath. To all such fathers....[/QUOTE

God's children do not go the Lake of Fire Zadok. God's children spend eternity with Him in Heaven.

Then perhaps you can disclose to us why only the overcomer is not "hurt" by the Lake of Theos/ Pur according to the Revelation? There are precisely 8 passages of Scripture in the Revelation that refer to the overcomer. From that basis, can you tell us if all believers (God's children) are overcomers? If not....oh no.... :doh:

 

[Zadok]

God's children do not go the Lake of Fire Zadok. God's children spend eternity with Him in Heaven.

"And to the Church of Sardis write...I know your doings--you are supposed to be alive but in reality you are dead...for I have found no doings of your perfect in the sight of the Lord....and yet you have a few who have not defiled their garments....

Are all God's children in Sardis overcomers? What does a "few" mean to you?