No such 'doctrine' exists! Does that make it a bit clearer....?
BRXII Battle talk
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No such 'doctrine' exists! Does that make it a bit clearer....?
Well, the eternal lake of fire is doctrinal. Jesus teaches of it Himself. So why do insist on rejecting Jesus in favor of something you admit does not exist?
Don't forget the part about throwing away all the Biblical statements that disagree with the Universalist Nuance. If it were that easy, I could have saved a bunch of time going over that very question.
Thanks! I'm sure PK appreciates the "help." Considering the question of rational argument, Universalists don't have any.
You're welcome.
I may be stepping in ill-timed here... but a universalist message in especially the new testament writings is a given, right? Or are you guys discussing a particular, narrow, modernist Strain or Sect of formalized Universalism?
all good seminaries of many, if not all christian flavors, teach and probe both the universalist and peculiarist themes that are in the fabric of the new testament writings. Its a false dialectic to torture an "either/or" stance .... like so many misguided 'debates'.
'we now return you to your regularly programmed broadcast'.....:guitar:
all good seminaries of many, if not all christian flavors, teach and probe both the universalist and peculiarist themes that are in the fabric of the new testament writings. Its a false dialectic to torture an "either/or" stance .... like so many misguided 'debates'.
'we now return you to your regularly programmed broadcast'.....:guitar:
Of course they are wrong "Pastor"
When you say God is right you actually mean your point of view is right.
Tis the story of Christianity.
Actually your wrong "Pastor"
No where in the bible is it even alluded to that judgment will come to those who reject the sacrifice of Jesus.
Jesus sacrificed himself to his God of his own freewill never alluding to "You must accept my sacrifice on the cross or else"
Really?
Is that why it was the prevailing belief of the Church for the first 500 years?
You forget the other texts that were written and believed in by the early Church Fathers before a group of "politically minded" men voted on the current cannon (with an extra 14 books not in your bible today, but still in the Catholic version)
Maybe If you have time in "Being busy with much" you should read a little more than what a Seminary wants you to teach and read.
You might learn something different.
http://tinyurl.com/lr3fc
You would say that about Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, Eastern Orthodox, Oneness Pentecostal, Catholicism, and on and on I could go.
The truth is is that anything outside of the scope of what you have been indoctrinated with is considered heresy, and Un-Biblical isn't it.
The same can be said about Orthodox Christians as well.
Let's see:
That is why the Orthodox Christians cannot defend their positions from the Scriptures and why this Battle Talk thread is evident of the continual refusal to actually discuss the debate it was based upon.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Love's Will............
Love's Will............
Love's Will............
~*~*~*~
Hi all,
Just thought to spruce the thread up a bit with a reminder of
the Supremacy of Love and Triumph of divine Will.
We've had a few threads on 'hell' in the Religious section,....ever a hot topic
Shalom,
pj
Hi all,
Just thought to spruce the thread up a bit with a reminder of
the Supremacy of Love and Triumph of divine Will.
We've had a few threads on 'hell' in the Religious section,....ever a hot topic
Shalom,
pj
Aimiel
Well-known member
:nono:
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Love without end............
Love without end............
~*~*~
Greetings all, just continuing our meditations on the subject. I know,...old hat perhaps,...but worth researching.
meta-tation:
Considering the Infinity of God's LOVE, let us review the Father's Will for all his offspring, notwithstanding the proclivities of free-will choice as these determine or decide the soul's condition or final destiny.
As we have surveyed,...there are many dimensions involved in this equation, these perspectives affecting various conclusions. Ultimately God's Will reigns univerally, no matter what particular individuals decide concerning their own personal vocation or end. Only if individual free will is 'sovereign' in regard to its own personal fate or destiny, and this is honored by God,...can we presume that God allows each soul its own course, of either life or death (this 'death' being a 'seperation' or 'final dissolution'/ 'extinction of individual survival' (disintegration).
Since His mercy is everlasting,....any soul that still has capacity for repentance can avail his saving grace, and so fulfill the higher Will of his individual purpose in God. The doctrine that some wicked souls will be detained in a lake of fire forever and ever, with no hope or remedy,...defies logic, reason, purpose and common-sense, in the light of God's Eternal Character and Will. Only if a soul can make a final decision of utter rejection of God/Life....and so suffer a 'final death'...will that soul be disintegrated. This view is a more tenable option besides Universalism,...since it respects individual free-will liberties, and provides a more sound universe-ecology or eschatology than God maintaining an eternal torture chamber for all eternity.
'God' detaining souls in a lake of fire or Hellish realm(of no escape).....forever and ever and ever and ever is insane. - besides being a blight and bane upon His Just/Merciful Nature, His divine Dignity.
While I'm essentially a universalist(in more ways than one), I also regard the possibility of 'annihilation', although i would reterm this as 'disintegration' or 'extinction' of individual selfhood'. I realize this is a complex issue touching many dimensions of what constitutes 'individual existence' or 'soul', and by what process could a soul actually be 'disintegrated', undergoing a final death. These issues must first be insighted, before jumping to some absolute conclusion on the matter. However, concerning God's eternal Goodness and Wisdom,...we can trust His mediations as wholly fair, just and merciful as only His Perfect BEING can administer.
As long as a soul 'can' avail Gods Love/mercy....there is hope, salvation, potential, survival capacity. - and this is good news indeed.
God is Love.
pj
Love without end............
~*~*~
Greetings all, just continuing our meditations on the subject. I know,...old hat perhaps,...but worth researching.
meta-tation:
Considering the Infinity of God's LOVE, let us review the Father's Will for all his offspring, notwithstanding the proclivities of free-will choice as these determine or decide the soul's condition or final destiny.
As we have surveyed,...there are many dimensions involved in this equation, these perspectives affecting various conclusions. Ultimately God's Will reigns univerally, no matter what particular individuals decide concerning their own personal vocation or end. Only if individual free will is 'sovereign' in regard to its own personal fate or destiny, and this is honored by God,...can we presume that God allows each soul its own course, of either life or death (this 'death' being a 'seperation' or 'final dissolution'/ 'extinction of individual survival' (disintegration).
Since His mercy is everlasting,....any soul that still has capacity for repentance can avail his saving grace, and so fulfill the higher Will of his individual purpose in God. The doctrine that some wicked souls will be detained in a lake of fire forever and ever, with no hope or remedy,...defies logic, reason, purpose and common-sense, in the light of God's Eternal Character and Will. Only if a soul can make a final decision of utter rejection of God/Life....and so suffer a 'final death'...will that soul be disintegrated. This view is a more tenable option besides Universalism,...since it respects individual free-will liberties, and provides a more sound universe-ecology or eschatology than God maintaining an eternal torture chamber for all eternity.
'God' detaining souls in a lake of fire or Hellish realm(of no escape).....forever and ever and ever and ever is insane. - besides being a blight and bane upon His Just/Merciful Nature, His divine Dignity.
While I'm essentially a universalist(in more ways than one), I also regard the possibility of 'annihilation', although i would reterm this as 'disintegration' or 'extinction' of individual selfhood'. I realize this is a complex issue touching many dimensions of what constitutes 'individual existence' or 'soul', and by what process could a soul actually be 'disintegrated', undergoing a final death. These issues must first be insighted, before jumping to some absolute conclusion on the matter. However, concerning God's eternal Goodness and Wisdom,...we can trust His mediations as wholly fair, just and merciful as only His Perfect BEING can administer.
As long as a soul 'can' avail Gods Love/mercy....there is hope, salvation, potential, survival capacity. - and this is good news indeed.
God is Love.
pj
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
This is a fun thread,....so thought to perk it back up, for curious readers. Its 'good news' (gospel) that we can eternally survive and progress as souls into the infinite beyond, without a 'god' keeping us 'alive' only to torment us without end, doomed to roast forever and ever in a lake of fire.
Love has better plans for those mindful of eternal good.
pj
Reading the BR posts and some of the comments, a few thoughts.
PastorKevin is seemingly applying a double standard to the word "Death" in some of his later posts, when referring to physical death -the 'first' death- it is used as an end, absolute, but when referring to the 'second' -spiritual- death it now, apparently, is not really an end but rather a continuing form of existence defined by unending pain and suffering, how can this be?
Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Notice the operative word "Destroy" as in unmake, no longer in existence, perhaps when the Bible refers to the 'second death' it actually means a cessation of existence? As in the soul truly being 'dead'?
logos_x seems to be taking a lot of flak for trying to point out that the modern translations of certain verses may have given the wrong interpretations, but in fairness PastorKevins whole argument is based upon his interpretation of said passages, if -as logos_x asks- those interpretations are misguided by wrongly translating certain Greek words then what does PK base his beliefs on?
And if PK holds the correct theology what about the countless humans who have lived and died since Christ died on the Cross, specifically those who never heard the Gospel in the first place -due to lack of missionary efforts, for instance what of the peoples of South America? Is every last one of them who died before missionaries brought the gospel of Christ to them damned? Merely for not having heard the truth? Is it "Too bad for you, you were born in the wrong place and didn't hear the good news, so off to hell you go."?!
Also on a related note, what of unborn children who are killed (by aborticide\abortion, for instance)? The Bible clearly states that all men (humans) are born in sin, and also in Deuteronomy 5:9 "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."
so that even if you try to split hairs and say the one has to be born (physically) to be a sinner the above verse denies that claim.
I will conclude with this; If you truly believe that eternal punishment is the default destination of man (humanity) unless he hears and obeys the word of God by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, how can anything in life be more important then witnessing and\or missionary work?! For how many have already been condemned because they never heard the truth of Salvation?
God bless you all.
PastorKevin is seemingly applying a double standard to the word "Death" in some of his later posts, when referring to physical death -the 'first' death- it is used as an end, absolute, but when referring to the 'second' -spiritual- death it now, apparently, is not really an end but rather a continuing form of existence defined by unending pain and suffering, how can this be?
Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Notice the operative word "Destroy" as in unmake, no longer in existence, perhaps when the Bible refers to the 'second death' it actually means a cessation of existence? As in the soul truly being 'dead'?
logos_x seems to be taking a lot of flak for trying to point out that the modern translations of certain verses may have given the wrong interpretations, but in fairness PastorKevins whole argument is based upon his interpretation of said passages, if -as logos_x asks- those interpretations are misguided by wrongly translating certain Greek words then what does PK base his beliefs on?
And if PK holds the correct theology what about the countless humans who have lived and died since Christ died on the Cross, specifically those who never heard the Gospel in the first place -due to lack of missionary efforts, for instance what of the peoples of South America? Is every last one of them who died before missionaries brought the gospel of Christ to them damned? Merely for not having heard the truth? Is it "Too bad for you, you were born in the wrong place and didn't hear the good news, so off to hell you go."?!
Also on a related note, what of unborn children who are killed (by aborticide\abortion, for instance)? The Bible clearly states that all men (humans) are born in sin, and also in Deuteronomy 5:9 "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."
so that even if you try to split hairs and say the one has to be born (physically) to be a sinner the above verse denies that claim.
I will conclude with this; If you truly believe that eternal punishment is the default destination of man (humanity) unless he hears and obeys the word of God by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, how can anything in life be more important then witnessing and\or missionary work?! For how many have already been condemned because they never heard the truth of Salvation?
God bless you all.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Infinity
Infinity
~*~*~
Adding to whats been shared previously -
Consider God's Infinite Love. It must by its very nature extend beyond, outshine and surpass any notion or concept of 'love' that the human mind can understand, comprehend or even know. Within this context, even with the gift of 'free will' it retains its supremacy....no matter where such freedom of choice carries the soul. As long as a soul has the capacity, willingness and opportunity for 'salvation' or 'enlightenment', it can afford itself the provision and liberty of 'God', since this Love is omnipresent.
pj
Infinity
~*~*~
Adding to whats been shared previously -
Consider God's Infinite Love. It must by its very nature extend beyond, outshine and surpass any notion or concept of 'love' that the human mind can understand, comprehend or even know. Within this context, even with the gift of 'free will' it retains its supremacy....no matter where such freedom of choice carries the soul. As long as a soul has the capacity, willingness and opportunity for 'salvation' or 'enlightenment', it can afford itself the provision and liberty of 'God', since this Love is omnipresent.
pj
Heavenbound
New member
The doctrine of eternal torment is in error because it is contrary to the biblical teaching that there is life only in Christ. “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life” (1 John 5:12).
A person burning in hell would not have a pleasant life, but he would have life. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment (Romans 6:23).
A person burning in hell would not have a pleasant life, but he would have life. According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment (Romans 6:23).
Again proving the adage "to save the best for last" ...
I gave up on the actual BR 2 paragraphs into the first round from logos when it was apparent that he was only arguing about the length of time spent in a lake of fire, not against the existence of the lake itself. Also, skipped right to the last page of the grandstand comments coz im just too lazy and uninterested to read 3000+ posts since 2006 ...
Glad to see some common sense in the final post (to date) tho ...
Let it be clear: God is not a demon who derives pleasure from torturing erring humans. God is not Stalin, Hitler or George W. Bush.
Anyone who believes that an infinite, perfect, divine God whose nature is eternal love, could create such a place or harbour such emotions is ignorant of the truth, goodness and beauty of God and is unqualified to speak with authority about Him.
Let me say further: those who believe in the existence of Hell and feel justified in their own belief of it are of spirit and nature much closer to Stalin, Hitler and George W. Bush, nay, even of Satan himself as he is presented in the Christian faith, than of the loving, merciful, perfect and true God who created the Universe and blessed us with the opportunity to partake in it.
A leaf cannot survive unless it is attached to a tree. In the same way, human beings, as spirit entities, exist only due to their attachment to God. Human beings who willfully and deliberately remove themselves from the tree of God will, by their own volition, wither and die. This is not by divine wrath or punishment; it is not permeated with feelings of anger or enmity; it is simply the natural consequence following from specific actions.
The wages of sin are death ... this is just a fact.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
Great battle...I think kevin did a good job and with great poise and attitude. Logos made some valid points. I want to be a universalist and have tried for a year now but just not enough scriptural support. I realize ill have to believe the bible is loaded with errors to do it and cant get myself there. What I dont understand is how pastor kevin is able to belive in eternal torment for unbelivers and yet still see god as loving?.....or more than that see him as a good mastermind behind creation? My unanswerable question I have that I would love to battle someone on is....after adam and eve sinned why didnt god close eves womb and save billions from going to endless torment? The only logical answer is universalism or annihilation...... Ive tried to get answers and have yet to find one.....can someone please help me?
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