BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

Universalist's are the wall, and you are just one brick in it.

Any numbskull can refuse to accept any clear teaching and then later claim "see, it's not clear is it???"

What you have done is no great accomplishment, and in the end the one that loses the most is you.

Knight, both you and the pastor have had diferrent interpretations as to what the lake of fire is on here since the outset of the Battle royale, you believed it metaphorical, the pastor - literal, if it was so "clear" then there shouldn't be any discrepancy - whatsoever! And that's just between the two of you, there are countless other 'opnions' and views as to what hell, the lake of fire actually are that dont agree with either yours or the pastor's....

you're right in that anyone can avoid 'clear' teaching but this is one subject that even the ascriber's are in confusion over, I could equally turn around and quote Tim4:10 as a clear teaching except that suddenly it becomes very complicated for ascriber's to ET as 'especially' invariably changes meaning to 'only' in order for it to be "clear"

What I have done isn't any great accomplishment and that wasn't my intention ayway, I'm merely debating an issue which I believe is one of the most cold, heartless and alienating through my own experience and that of many other people,

 

[Frank Ernest]

Knight, both you and the pastor have had diferrent interpretations as to what the lake of fire is on here, you believed it metaphorical, the pastor - literal, if it was so "clear" then there shouldn't be any discrepancy - whatsoever! And that's just between the two of you, there are countless other 'opnions' and views as to what hell, the lake of fire actually are that dont agree with either yours or the pastor's....

It is clear. The fact that folks will disagree on metaphor and literal meanings doesn't change that. Basic clarity - God will destroy evil for the eternity.

you're right in that anyone can avoid 'clear' teaching but this is one subject that even the ascriber's are in confusion over, I could equally turn around and quote Tim4:10 as a clear teaching except that suddenly it becomes very complicated for ascriber's to ET as 'especially' invariably changes meanting to 'only' in order for it to be "clear"

No problem. Jesus the Christ is the Savior of all men. That does not translate to a blanket pardon for unrepented sin. I'm not a ET guy, but I do not see where this verse would give them a problem.

What I have done isn't any great accomplishment and that wasn't my intention ayway, I'm merely debating an issue which I believe is one of the most cold, heartless and alienating through my own experience and that of many other people,

Another "prophet" who thinks God is subject to his and his adherents' judgments. God has already condemned Satan (Ezekiel 28:18). Think He's going to change His mind because some folks think He is cold, heartless and alienating?

 

[red77]

It is clear. The fact that folks will disagree on metaphor and literal meanings doesn't change that. Basic clarity - God will destroy evil for the eternity.

This may surprise you but I also believe that evil is destroyed for eternity, eternal torment ironically wouldn't accomplish this because even with the myriad views and interpretations of just what it actually entails sin is still allowed to exist in some hellhole for all time.....
And besides which if ET is so supposedly clear then why is it not in plain black and white - no room for interpretation of any sort on a matter that would be CRUCIAL

No problem. Jesus the Christ is the Savior of all men. That does not translate to a blanket pardon for unrepented sin. I'm not a ET guy, but I do not see where this verse would give them a problem.

Nobody says that it's a blanket pardon, but you're mistaken in that this one verse alone doesnt give a problem, perhaps you can answer how "God is the saviour of all men especially those who believe" to mean anything other than that, if you can without changing the definition of especially to 'only' then kudos, noone else has managed it to date.....
Also, if you're not necassirily an 'ET guy' then what are your beliefs? in the first paragraph you said it was 'clear'.....

Another "prophet" who thinks God is subject to his and his adherents' judgments. God has already condemned Satan (Ezekiel 28:18). Think He's going to change His mind because some folks think He is cold, heartless and alienating?

No, i don't believe that he has mankind destined for what organised religion might preach, and regardless this debate isn't centred purely on emotional or moral grounds - although they obviously play a part in the discussion

 

[Ecumenicist]

Oops... dave forgot... ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ ...again....

Dave, perhaps you keep forgetting this part because you so want to be able to define love by your own measure... sort of like you do with sin.

Jesus instructed us to demonstrate our love of God through loving others.

Matt 25:37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

[Redfin]

That does not translate to a blanket pardon for unrepented sin.

That you even felt it necessary to make that statement shows that somewhere you've missed the point, big time. :doh: :sigh:

 

[Nineveh]

Jesus instructed us to demonstrate our love of God through loving others.

Dave, again, you don't get to pick and choose. It's not love to ...oh let's say... tell a homo he is "ok" with God as long as he is "monogamous". Talk about clarity of Scripture on an issue, yet somehow you feel compelled to make it say something it does not. First we are to Love God then our neighbors. It's only by Loving God first we can be sure we don't offer our neighbors our own version of worldly love that leads to death. That's why you keep forgetting that "Love God" part before you quote the love your neighbor part. Because, just as with sin, you want to make things up as you go along.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave, again, you don't get to pick and choose. It's not love to ...oh let's say... tell a homo he is "ok" with God as long as he is "monogamous". Talk about clarity of Scripture on an issue, yet somehow you feel compelled to make it say something it does not. First we are to Love God then our neighbors. It's only by Loving God first we can be sure we don't offer our neighbors our own version of worldly love that leads to death. That's why you keep forgetting that "Love God" part before you quote the love your neighbor part. Because, just as with sin, you want to make things up as you go along.

Are you saying that we "Love God first" by accepting the doctrine of eternal torment,
and not until then should we love our neighbors?

I would rebut by saying we "Love God first" by accepting His doctrines of loving
our neighbors, and our enemies, and caring for those in need.

 

[Psalmist]

:think:

Despite attacks, the fact remains that God's Word clearly teaches the eternal fate of unbelievers who reject the grace of God and refuse to accept the way out He provided for their sins.

If a person dies in their sins and refuses Christ's payment for them he has no hope, and will spend eternity apart from God in the Lake of Fire.

We as Christians need to be obsessed, obsessed, obsessed, with warning people to avoid going there! Unfortunately, too many Christians are more worried about the comforts and cares of this life and they do not think of all the people around them who are going to hell.

Wake up Christians and get busy telling others about Jesus Christ!

I think you should be more concerned about the goodness of any Deity who would do that to sentient beings.

Glad to see you're still struggling with this PK.

Now relax.

Obsessing about saving others won't save everyone. I'm sure you've experienced for yourself the frustration of trying to threaten, cajole, scare, and beg people to come to Christ because of your own caring concern about their eternal well being.

Only God can save, through Jesus Christ. God is Loving, God is Merciful, God is full of Grace, trust in God. We do our part here and now, but only God can save.

Obsessing comes from a lack of trust in God, trying to bear the responsibility for the salvation of the world upon our limited, human shoulders. Christ took that burdon upon
Himself.

About being "Concerned" . . . True God’s goodness is important, and "Obsessing" has not nor will not save anyone.


"Concerned" and "Obsessing" . . .

If PK’s (PastorKevin) zeal for soul winning was anything less than a concerned zealous soul winner and pastor for Jesus, I would question his calling and motivation for serving the Lord . . . I am very thankful when the redeemed of the Lord have a zeal for serving the Lord and speaking forth the truth of John three-sixteen, that shows that the Spirit of the Lord is working and moving throughout the world, drawing those to hear those who are telling all and any who will hear the plan of salvation and direct those who are without Christ to the Romans Road.


Responsibility . . .

About PK bearing his responsibility for the salvation of the world, he is bearing his part . . . When Isaiah heard the Lord ask, Isaiah answered - Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: "Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me." Isaiah 6:8 - So to PK has answered the call.

So as PK like many others who have answered the call have found assurance in the call and its responsibility - So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." John 20:21 - By the way did you notice there is a "Peace" that goes with the call.

PK, and there are others, are the “We” followers of Jesus Christ that all Christians should be, "Soul Winners", the “We,” the "Together" "We" like in - All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6


Burden bearing . . .

Yes Christ Jesus is our “Great Burden Bearer,” for He does not send any to bear the burden alone, Jesus never lets his servants bear the burden alone, for He helps with the burden, for He who has called us and loves us, carries the heavy end, and makes our burden light.

Because the Carpenter of carpenters, more than likely made yoke for oxen, HE knew precisely how shape and smooth the yoke for the owners of oxen, and He does know how to fit the yoke for those who heed the call recorded in Matthew’s gospel -

Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." Matthew 11:28-30


Finally . . .

Lord let us bear the burden's that you have given us, to bear graciously, without complaining, to tell like clarion's the greatest story ever told to those who need to it, while it is day, that they will be able to say before they breathe their last, "Saved by Grace!"

Praise the Lord, Amen and Amen!

- 30 -​

:scripto:. . Psalmist

 

[PKevman]

Glad to see you're still struggling with this PK.

The only thing I struggle with is the knowledge that the Lake of Fire will be more populated if people live their lives under the direction of teachers like you.

Now relax.

No. I will not relax. I will not quit! I will do as the Apostle Paul said and press on, not thinking that I have attained anything! I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Obsessing about saving others won't save everyone.

And neither will lying to them about their eternal destiny. It isn't our job to save everyone. It is our job to do our best to reach all those that we can. It is not my job to SAVE a single soul! God does the saving. We are responsible for getting out the message. I will obey Scripture over Dave Miller every day of the week!

I'm sure you've experienced for yourself the frustration of trying to threaten, cajole, scare, and beg people to come to Christ because of your own caring concern about their eternal well being.

Actually I don't threaten a single person. I faithfully preach the Word and God blesses the results. We have people accept Christ at our church on a regular basis, and God is to be praised for that. Your representation of me is entirely inaccurate.

Only God can save, through Jesus Christ. God is Loving, God is Merciful, God is full of Grace, trust in God. We do our part here and now, but only God can save.

Actually I agree with all of that statement! The only thing you miss (and to your own detriment and anyone who listens to you), is the other side of the coin. That God hates sin. That God judges wickedness for all eternity and that sinners who refuse to repent of their sin will spend eternity regretting it!

Obsessing comes from a lack of trust in God,

Where exactly do you find that? Did Paul obsess over what he was to accomplish for God? Should we as Christians do any less? You're a fool Dave!

trying to bear the responsibility for the salvation of the world upon our limited, human shoulders. Christ took that burdon upon Himself.

Complete and utter straw man. And not a very good one I might add!

 

[Redfin]

Actually I agree with all of that statement! The only thing you miss (and to your own detriment and anyone who listens to you), is the other side of the coin.

That God hates sin.

That God judges wickedness for all eternity and that sinners who refuse to repent of their sin will spend eternity regretting it!

Actually, Christian Universalism agrees with your last two statements above.

Intentionally or not, you too are arguing against a straw-man there.

:think:

 

[Nineveh]

Are you saying that we "Love God first" by accepting the doctrine of eternal torment,
and not until then should we love our neighbors?

No. I'm not sure how you arrived at that... but please, don't feel compelled to explain

I would rebut by saying we "Love God first" by accepting His doctrines of loving
our neighbors, and our enemies, and caring for those in need.

Except you want to use your own measure, dave. If you don't respect what God has to say first and foremost you aren't offering Godly Love, you offer false hope and excuses that make the damned feel better about going to hell.

 

[Frank Ernest]

This may surprise you but I also believe that evil is destroyed for eternity, eternal torment ironically wouldn't accomplish this because even with the myriad views and interpretations of just what it actually entails sin is still allowed to exist in some hellhole for all time.....
And besides which if ET is so supposedly clear then why is it not in plain black and white - no room for interpretation of any sort on a matter that would be CRUCIAL

How would you know what ET might or might not accomplish? Is God subject to your opinion? God says the punishment will last for eternity. God says evil will be removed for eternity. God does not speak of evil existing after the Lake of Fire. My opinion, from that and other Scriptural references is that evil and evil people will be blotted out, gone, destroyed, for all eternity. Whether that is ET or something else is God's concern.

Nobody says that it's a blanket pardon, but you're mistaken in that this one verse alone doesnt give a problem, perhaps you can answer how "God is the saviour of all men especially those who believe" to mean anything other than that, if you can without changing the definition of especially to 'only' then kudos, noone else has managed it to date.....

I don't have to play with translations. "Especially" means the set-aside ones - the saints.

Also, if you're not necassirily an 'ET guy' then what are your beliefs? in the first paragraph you said it was 'clear'.....

Beliefs and opinion are above.

No, i don't believe that he has mankind destined for what organised religion might preach, and regardless this debate isn't centred purely on emotional or moral grounds - although they obviously play a part in the discussion

Then what is it centered on? Seems to me it's based on the fear that God may mean what he says.

 

[red77]

How would you know what ET might or might not accomplish? Is God subject to your opinion? God says the punishment will last for eternity. God says evil will be removed for eternity. God does not speak of evil existing after the Lake of Fire. My opinion, from that and other Scriptural references is that evil and evil people will be blotted out, gone, destroyed, for all eternity. Whether that is ET or something else is God's concern.

So you aren't sure yourself what you actually believe God will do then? if you're not sure ET exists then why do other people say that it is clearly taught? Your description seems to veer more towards annihaltionism?
The reason that sin could hardly be destroyed is because people who have sin are still existing in some corner of the universe, evil is therefore not destroyed

I don't have to play with translations. "Especially" means the set-aside ones - the saints.

How can it when the verse says that God is the saviour of all men, especially of believers? Your explanation makes no sense

Beliefs and opinion are above.

Which I'm still not sure about, you don't seem absolutely sure yourself on this subject.....

Then what is it centered on? Seems to me it's based on the fear that God may mean what he says.

about being the saviour of the world for example? I believe God can mean what he says....

It's actually centred on scriptures

 

[Frank Ernest]

So you aren't sure yourself what you actually believe God will do then? if you're not sure ET exists then why do other people say that it is clearly taught?

:darwinsm: Why should what other people say concern me? Is this one of those "all opinions are equally valid" things? God has said what He will do.

Your description seems to veer more towards annihaltionism?
The reason that sin could hardly be destroyed is because people who have sin are still existing in some corner of the universe, evil is therefore not destroyed

How do you know that? God didn't reveal that in Scripture. Are you telling me that God doesn't know what He's doing because there are some people who are confused about it?

How can it when the verse says that God is the saviour of all men, especially of believers? Your explanation makes no sense

The believers are the 99. Some unbelievers are among the currently lost. (Luke 15:4)

Which I'm still not sure about, you don't seem absolutely sure yourself on this subject.....

Still searching it. It's a Berean thing. (Acts 17:10-11)

about being the saviour of the world for example? I believe God can mean what he says....

Great! I believe God means exactly what He says. It may take me some effort to figure it out, but I'll get there eventually. I'm also sure that the Holy Spirit will help me with the hard parts. Eventually, I will get a first-hand explanation.

It's actually centred on scriptures

it's centered on your belief of what Scripture should be and the ensuing confusion from other people's opinions.

 

[red77]

:darwinsm: Why should what other people say concern me? Is this one of those "all opinions are equally valid" things? God has said what He will do.

Well why have you posted on this thread if you're unsure what happens yourself? The pastor is convinced that ET is real, i'm convinced that it isn't, you don't seem to be sure one way or the other

How do you know that? God didn't reveal that in Scripture. Are you telling me that God doesn't know what He's doing because there are some people who are confused about it?

It's simple logic, if evil still exists in the form of people still existing in some place of torment then it is not destroyed, surely that much is obvious?

The believers are the 99. Some unbelievers are among the currently lost. (Luke 15:4)

Still makes no sense, if the verse had meant to say that Jesus was not in fact the saviour of all men then it would have been pretty straightforward to leave out the word 'especially' in that sentence, that one little word makes all the difference....

Still searching it. It's a Berean thing. (Acts 17:10-11)

ok....

Great! I believe God means exactly what He says. It may take me some effort to figure it out, but I'll get there eventually. I'm also sure that the Holy Spirit will help me with the hard parts. Eventually, I will get a first-hand explanation.

Also ok...

it's centered on your belief of what Scripture should be and the ensuing confusion from other people's opinions.

Most debates stem from people's differing interpretaions of scripture, this comment would apply as much to those who believe in ET as those who don't....

 

[Ecumenicist]

No. I'm not sure how you arrived at that... but please, don't feel compelled to explain

I thought this thread was about eternal torment.

Except you want to use your own measure, dave. If you don't respect what God has to say first and foremost you aren't offering Godly Love, you offer false hope and excuses that make the damned feel better about going to hell.

As opposed to making the saved feel miserable about going to heaven? (By assuring them
that billions of people, including loved ones, will suffer eternal torment while they enjoy
eternal paradise...)

 

[Nineveh]

I thought this thread was about eternal torment.

You don't even know what sin is. So when you want to talk about Godly Love, which you treat the same way you do sin, I thought it might be important for folks to know how theologically inept you are.

As opposed to making the saved feel miserable about going to heaven? (By assuring them
that billions of people, including loved ones, will suffer eternal torment while they enjoy
eternal paradise...)

Why should we feel miserable?! It's our commission to call people to Christ Who can heal them! Man, dave... is it really such a drag for you to call yourself by the Name of Christ? Maybe that's why you like to make so much of it up as you go along.

 

[PKevman]

I want to say that I had the privelege of meeting Logos in person a few weeks ago and he is a great guy. I still pray for him that he will abandon this false teaching that he has embraced.

 

[Balder]

Why should we feel miserable?! It's our commission to call people to Christ Who can heal them! Man, dave... is it really such a drag for you to call yourself by the Name of Christ? Maybe that's why you like to make so much of it up as you go along.

So, when you are in heaven and you know that, elsewhere, countless souls are in unimaginable and interminable torment, you will not feel miserable about that?

 

[Frank Ernest]

Well why have you posted on this thread if you're unsure what happens yourself? The pastor is convinced that ET is real, i'm convinced that it isn't, you don't seem to be sure one way or the other

What? Now I have to justify why I post -- to you? :darwinsm:

It's simple logic, if evil still exists in the form of people still existing in some place of torment then it is not destroyed, surely that much is obvious?

It may be obvious to you and you started with a big "IF." What leads to your conclusion, since there is nothing in Scripture to suggest it.

Still makes no sense, if the verse had meant to say that Jesus was not in fact the saviour of all men then it would have been pretty straightforward to leave out the word 'especially' in that sentence, that one little word makes all the difference....

Only to you and the other Universalists.

Most debates stem from people's differing interpretaions of scripture, this comment would apply as much to those who believe in ET as those who don't....

Sure would. I'll be happy to debate the issue when I have firm Scriptural ground to walk on. Universalism is a losing issue. So, the disagreement is whether ET or Annihilation.