I notice that you are not challenging my interpretation of the passage. There are several meanings in the teaching, but no hidden meaning. Jesus never hid His teachings. He wants us to understand.
BRXII Battle talk
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Why do you get to pick and choose what gets to be interpreted as a parable and what isnt? The ONLY reason this is considered a literal event by ET'ers is because of the use of a name - and that name translates as "misery", whats more it falls apart as has been shown time and again to regard this as a literal event because of the suspension of belief one has to have to believe that a man can talk rationally while on fire!
I said 'deeper meaning' not hidden, I already have challenged you on your interpretation of the passage, you believe it to be literal and wont acknowledge the illogic required to do so, thats up to you....
26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
How do you interpret that as anything but a chasm you cannot cross?!?!
You have not shown me anything illogical. You have an issue with somebody being able to speak when in agony. Jesus does not. Who should I believe?
Even setting that aside, Abraham is talking about the chasm, not the rich man. Apraham is not in agony and perfectly able to speak clearly and he describes the chasm. There is nothing illogical about that, is there?
This is the point, it's more logical to take this as a parable than literal, why is that such a difficult concept to grasp? If you want to delude yourself into thinking that people who are literally on fire can form coherent sentences then go ahead.....
Okay, its a parable. So what changes? Abraham, who is not being tortured, is still speaking about a chasm that cannot be crossed. The rich man is stull suffering. Lazars is still in "heaven". A life of missery is rewarded and a life of greed is punished which is taught elsewhere is scripture.
I conceed that it is a prable and what changes? In fact, your position is weaker. In the real world, speaking while in agony is extreemly difficult, not impossible mind you, but difficult. In a parable it is much easier to accept since it is offered as an example, not a real person.
So you have your way and it is a parable. What changes?
BurntOffering
New member
No that is a Lie! God created All which includes Evil and even Satan, for God's good cause. God's will will always be done, cause God's got it like dat.
Isa. 45:6 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is None beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and created darkness, I make peace and create evil; I the LORD do All these things.
Yeah the whole creation suffers in childbirth until I as Satan say unto you
Isa 42:14 "I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself; now will I cry like a travailing Woman; I will destroy and devour at once.
Isa 43:8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes and the deaf that have ears. Let all the nations be gathered together and let the people be assembled; Who among them can declare this; and shew us former things? Let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justfied; or let them hear and say it is truth.
Now that sounds like a request to debate
Isa. 45:6 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is None beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and created darkness, I make peace and create evil; I the LORD do All these things.
Yeah the whole creation suffers in childbirth until I as Satan say unto you
Isa 42:14 "I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself; now will I cry like a travailing Woman; I will destroy and devour at once.
Isa 43:8 Bring forth the blind people that have eyes and the deaf that have ears. Let all the nations be gathered together and let the people be assembled; Who among them can declare this; and shew us former things? Let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justfied; or let them hear and say it is truth.
Now that sounds like a request to debate
PKevman
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Universalism house of cards falls again!
Universalism house of cards falls again!
But I don't. IF this were a parable it would be the ONLY parable that Jesus told in which SPECIFIC names are used. So the onus is again NOT on me to prove WHY it is not a parable. The onus is on YOU to prove why it is!
And why do you think that is, Red? Could it be because it would be the ONLY parable in which a name is used? And the text says there was a "CERTAIN rich man" (emphasis mine). There was a CERTAIN rich man, and a CERTAIN beggar NAMED Lazarus. Sounds like real people to me!
Actually the name in the Greek is the exact same name used of the Lazarus Jesus rose from the dead. Same name, different guy. And the meaning of the name is actually best translated into English as "The one that God helps"
Talk rationally? In verse 23 it says that he was in torment.
In verse 24 it says “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
Where you suspend rationality is trying to explain away the torture the man is going through and say that HE is talking RATIONALLY. The text clearly says he is CRYING OUT! In fact here is another word study for you, the Greek word for "cried" has in its meaning to call out loudly! It is in fact used of Jesus when He cries out "with a loud voice" in Luke 23:46. It is used of Paul in Acts 16:28 when he again "calls out with a loud voice". In Revelation 14:18 it is used of an angel who "Cried out with a loud voice". In every instance I see this word used in the New Testament, it always means to cry out with a loud voice. So in order to swallow your story that the man is talking rationally, we must ignore what this word "Cried" means in the text.
Further in verse 27 he is begging for mercy for his unsaved brothers.
Red77 can you provide proof that people in torment CANNOT cry in a loud voice and beg for mercy? If so please cite your source or else please stop making this argument because it doesn't work!
Universalism house of cards falls again!
red77 said:
But I don't. IF this were a parable it would be the ONLY parable that Jesus told in which SPECIFIC names are used. So the onus is again NOT on me to prove WHY it is not a parable. The onus is on YOU to prove why it is!
And why do you think that is, Red? Could it be because it would be the ONLY parable in which a name is used? And the text says there was a "CERTAIN rich man" (emphasis mine). There was a CERTAIN rich man, and a CERTAIN beggar NAMED Lazarus. Sounds like real people to me!
Actually the name in the Greek is the exact same name used of the Lazarus Jesus rose from the dead. Same name, different guy. And the meaning of the name is actually best translated into English as "The one that God helps"
Talk rationally? In verse 23 it says that he was in torment.
In verse 24 it says “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
Where you suspend rationality is trying to explain away the torture the man is going through and say that HE is talking RATIONALLY. The text clearly says he is CRYING OUT! In fact here is another word study for you, the Greek word for "cried" has in its meaning to call out loudly! It is in fact used of Jesus when He cries out "with a loud voice" in Luke 23:46. It is used of Paul in Acts 16:28 when he again "calls out with a loud voice". In Revelation 14:18 it is used of an angel who "Cried out with a loud voice". In every instance I see this word used in the New Testament, it always means to cry out with a loud voice. So in order to swallow your story that the man is talking rationally, we must ignore what this word "Cried" means in the text.
Further in verse 27 he is begging for mercy for his unsaved brothers.
Red77 can you provide proof that people in torment CANNOT cry in a loud voice and beg for mercy? If so please cite your source or else please stop making this argument because it doesn't work!
Ecumenicist
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He was calling to Father Abraham, who could not save him. This says nothing
about Christ's ability to save.
about Christ's ability to save.
BurntOffering
New member
Well I can't speak for anybody else except for myself to say I refrain from sexual immorality because I am dedicated to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Plus quite frankly thats because there's no other man alive I trust. What people do is between them and God, and God knows their hearts.
Peace out
Peace out
PKevman
New member
Well that is great that you refrain from sexual immorality! I am glad to hear that. I really didn't ask that question though.
To refresh:
You said,
burntoffering said:
My question is this:
Burntoffering: Do people refrain from sexual immorality in our culture today? Is God's will being done when people participate in sexual immorality?
Redfin
New member
PK, is it God's will to allow people to participate in sexual immorality and reap the consequences if they so choose?
PKevman
New member
If they participate in sexual immorality they will reap the consequences in one way or another. Do you want to take a stab at answering the question I asked? Or must every discussion with Universalists go off track on every point. (sorry if I seem to be growing weary of this debate style).
Universalism also argues that God's will cannot be subverted and so they say that God wills all men to be saved. Red has said over and over again ad nauseum that he believes God will accomplish His will and all will be saved. So a simple question that should be able to receive a simple answer:
Do people refrain from sexual immorality in our culture today? Is God's will being done when people participate in sexual immorality?
How about just answering the question with an answer and not another question?
PKevman
New member
My answer is also that it is NEVER God's will for people to participate in sexual immorality, and that everytime they do they are acting opposite to God's will for their lives!
Nineveh
Merely Christian
I was always drawn. We all are. Things didn't change until I was willing to listen.
The Law convicted me. As it does everyone, "for all have sinned"....
That will be the same Law that those who reject Christ will be judged by. Your mere wish there is hope in the lake doesn't make it so.
Nineveh
Merely Christian
The gulf was already fixed dave. What divided those on the other side from Abraham's side?
Salvation is a work of God. He makes you willing. You need to give a bit more credit the Holy Spirit who guides us into His Truth.
PKevman
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