BRXII Battle talk

[Nineveh]

Certainly not the Jesus you present. I don't believe in "that Jesus" either.

Page back, dave, read his witness.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Is this the Jesus that said that he was the saviour of the world? Or just some of it.......

Jesus paid the price for all men, yet some reject that gift.

God is a gentlemen not a kidnapper.

 

[PKevman]

Ok, Kevin, I apparently misread your intent.

It would help to stop trying to read intent and just answer the questions I ask straightforward.

I thought in terms of the Gospel as being the truth...whereas you were writing in terms of the belief being what saves someone.

You lose me here. It just makes no sense in light of God's Word. The Gospel IS the truth and there is ONLY ONE Gospel.

Now...with that take on things I can see what your objection might be. So, to clarify, I believe that the salvation of all men is the Gospel.

Ok so now all you need to do is demonstrate where in the Bible it says that the salvation of all men is the Gospel. Please list the Bible verse that clearly states that the salvation of all is the Gospel.

The belief, however, isn't a requirement to be saved any more than a belief in eternal torment is.

And for the umpteenth time we have not ever said the belief in eternal torment is the gospel. There is only one gospel, and it is not the salvation of all according to the Bible.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Not a problem, but I still think that by saying that the salvation of all is the gospel you must be saying that if someone rejects the salvation of all they reject the gospel. Right?

 

[Nineveh]

You should speak directly to them...

Why? Because you perceive some error? I will not correct someone else on your perceived error. I am content to let them speak for themselves.

My list differs from yours. You believe you have God's list, but you can't prove it.

Well, you just admitted it really isn't mine. So that accusation didn't last long. You don't have to believe in the God spoken of in Scripture, but that doesn't make Him go away. As I said before, your "all inclusiveness" doesn't seem big enough to extend to that God.

Yes, I'm hoping one day you'll see the light.

And I'm prayin' one day you will see the Light of men.

 

[Balder]

Why? Because you perceive some error? I will not correct someone else on your perceived error. I am content to let them speak for themselves.

They believe something that you don't believe. You are willing to challenge Dave on what you see as his misinterpretation of scripture, instead of letting him speak to himself. Why the double standard?

 

[logos_x]

Ok so now all you need to do is demonstrate where in the Bible it says that the salvation of all men is the Gospel. Please list the Bible verse that clearly states that the salvation of all is the Gospel.

1 Tim. 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


1 Tim.4:10
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.


Rom. 5:18-19
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous.


Rom. 11:36
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Col. 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1 Cor. 15:22-28
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again.
But this will happen to each in the right order--Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return.
Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power.
For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death;
for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him.
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.


Rom. 8:20-21
For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it).
Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God.


Act 3:21
Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy Prophets--the times of the reconstitution of all things.

"Reconstitution" in the Greek is ἀποκατάστασις
apokatastasis
Thayer Definition:
1) restoration
1a) of a true theocracy
1b) of the perfect state before the fall
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G600

G600
ἀποκαθίστημι
apokathistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to restore to its former state
2) to be in its former state

Now, I could go on to "all the families of the Earth will be blessed" clear through to the last chapter of Revelation where it says it all ends with "whosoever will, let him come"...but if that was all I needed to do then what are we still arguing for?

 

[Redfin]

God is a gentlemen not a kidnapper.

That is such a lame argument.

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire gentlemanly, when bringing them to heaven is not?

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire not kidnapping, but bringing them to heaven would be?

 

[PKevman]

1 Tim. 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


1 Tim.4:10
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.


Rom. 5:18-19
It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.
For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous.


Rom. 11:36
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Col. 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1 Cor. 15:22-28
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again.
But this will happen to each in the right order--Christ having been the first to rise, and afterwards Christ's people rising at His return.
Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power.
For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death;
for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him.
But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.


Rom. 8:20-21
For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it).
Yet there was always the hope that at last the Creation itself would also be set free from the thraldom of decay so as to enjoy the liberty that will attend the glory of the children of God.


Act 3:21
Heaven must receive Him until those times of which God has spoken from the earliest ages through the lips of His holy Prophets--the times of the reconstitution of all things.

"Reconstitution" in the Greek is ἀποκατάστασις
apokatastasis
Thayer Definition:
1) restoration
1a) of a true theocracy
1b) of the perfect state before the fall
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G600

G600
ἀποκαθίστημι
apokathistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to restore to its former state
2) to be in its former state

Now, I could go on to "all the families of the Earth will be blessed" clear through to the last chapter of Revelation where it says it all ends with "whosoever will, let him come"...but if that was all I needed to do then what are we still arguing for?

And yet nowhere in those verses does it say the salvation of all is the Gospel. Want to try again?

 

[PKevman]

Romans 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

The Gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation for whom Stephen? Everyone who believes.

THAT is the Gospel!

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Paul's definition of the gospel summarized)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

There again in Paul's definition of the Gospel, there is not ONE mention that "the salvation of all is the gospel". Not ONE mention.

You have to decide, do you want to listen to the likes of Redfin and Zadok, or do you want to listen to God and His Word? Brandon has shared some with me how it was you fell into this false teaching, Stephen. I wouldn't mind hearing the whole story of who the false teachers were that have misled you and fed you false information about what THE GOSPEL really is. Remember that there is only ONE Gospel. Repeatedly in Scripture it is called THE GOSPEL.

Ephesians 1:13-14

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Please show where in the Bible it clearly says that THE Gospel is the salvation of all!

You will not find it because Universal Salvation is not a Biblical doctrine!

 

[red77]

That is such a lame argument.

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire gentlemanly, when bringing them to heaven is not?

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire not kidnapping, but bringing them to heaven would be?

Exactly! :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

That is such a lame argument.

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire gentlemanly, when bringing them to heaven is not?

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire not kidnapping, but bringing them to heaven would be?

The One Who led captivity captive and Who will place Satan, hell and even death into the Lake of Fire for eternal torment doesn't 'send' anyone to torment, since it is sin which does that. Doing the deeds of your father gets the reward that is due to your father. If your father is Satan, you get to go to hell with him.

Yours is the lame argument, because you 'reason' your idea of God into a corner and then attempt to force Him to do your will. God doesn't bow to man's wisdom. It is foolishness to Him. You seem to think that things are the opposite of what they really are. You seem to think that whatever you 'reason' God's Word to mean, that it must mean; rather than seeking to understand what He has so plainly written to be understood by even a child. Holding The Truth like that (in un-righteousness) will not go un-punished.

 

[logos_x]

That is such a lame argument.

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire gentlemanly, when bringing them to heaven is not?

How is sending people to be tormented forever in a lake of fire not kidnapping, but bringing them to heaven would be?

Indeed!

Knight, free will is something I believe in, that is, I believe everyone comes to faith of their own free will coupled with the Grace and judgments of God.

The Bible says that God has sworn by Himself...because there is no One greater to swear by...that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father. I believe that means that everyone comes to faith.

But...that is simply impossible if unending torment is true. So much so that the arguments against the salvation of all men suggest that every knee bowing and every tongue confessing is a forced bowing of "subjugation" (Niniveh's word) or else a sad realization that comes too late for it to do any good. The whole idea of everyone coming to faith isn't even thought to be possible because it is outside of the plausibility structure that the tradition insists on.

Why does free will require an eternal torment?

If there IS "eternal torment" then it cannot, still, be what the doctrine has described if "God is a gentleman and will not kidnap anyone"....because if the statement is true, then burning people forever would not be any better than a kidnapper, in fact it is infinitly worse.
The conclusion must be that, if there is eternal torment, then it is not because God imposes it upon anyone but would forever seek to save them from such a fate, and while God...through the Spirit and the bride...says "come, whosoever will" they continually refuse to come.

But the traditional DOCTRINE of eternal torment doesn't even allow for this scenario. It has an Open Future only for believers. For everyone else it is jail forever where bowing and confessing Jesus is Lord does absolutely nothing...and for some they are literally burning forever in literal flames.

Hardly a gentlemanly creation. Maybe someone else besides God came up with the idea to begin with....

 

[Nineveh]

They believe something that you don't believe.

They both believe Christ offers you salvation. They both believe without Christ you will be forever without Christ.

You are willing to challenge Dave on what you see as his misinterpretation of scripture, instead of letting him speak to himself.

It's because he speaks for himself I challenge him with Scripture.

Why the double standard?

Aimiel and PK are in line with Scripture. Dave makes a habit of being outside.

 

[logos_x]

Please show where in the Bible it clearly says that THE Gospel is the salvation of all!

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

I believe this means everyone comes to faith eventually. You don't. Why you don't is because you believe the eons of chastisment are unending and accomplish nothing, and this is because of the translators you have chosen to trust.

Now, if you are simply going to explain away all the scriptures I provide so your precious eternal torment seems true, then this will be an exercise in futility.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Page back, dave, read his witness.

I'm well aware of Balder's witness, which is "open to the possibility." This is hopeful,
especially given his witness as to why he abandoned Christianity in the first place.

Would you drive him back to a place of outright rejection? Or would you allow the Holy Spirit
to continue to work through his "openness to the possibility?"

 

[Aimiel]

Aimiel and PK are in line with Scripture. Dave makes a habit of being outside.

As does Logos_X, Red77 and Redfin, let's be fair.

 

[Nineveh]

I'm well aware of Balder's witness, which is "open to the possibility." This is hopeful,
especially given his witness as to why he abandoned Christianity in the first place.

He dos not have faith in Christ. As I asked before, where will his hope come from? Believe it or not dave, balder realizes he can not accept a God on his own terms, he must accpet that God on that God's terms. At least in this, balder is being more honest than you are.

Would you drive him back to a place of outright rejection?

That is where he is now. "Maybe" is not belief or faith.

Or would you allow the Holy Spirit
to continue to work through his "openness to the possibility?"

Do you believe the Spirit is going to lead him to a lie in attempts to bring him back to faith? I don't think He will. Tickling one's ears is not something God smiles upon.

 

[Ecumenicist]

He dos not have faith in Christ. As I asked before, where will his hope come from? Believe it or not dave, balder realizes he can not accept a God on his own terms, he must accpet that God on that God's terms. At least in this, balder is being more honest than you are.

That is where he is now. "Maybe" is not belief or faith.

Do you believe the Spirit is going to lead him to a lie in attempts to bring him back to faith? I don't think He will. Tickling one's ears is not something God smiles upon.

Methinks thou doubtest the power of the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Truth.

 

[Redfin]

"The One Who led captivity captive and Who will place Satan, hell and even death into the Lake of Fire for eternal torment doesn't 'send' anyone to torment..."

So your whole argument boils down to the difference between "send" and "place?"

Surely you can do better than that...

:think:

 

[Redfin]

Aimiel and PK are in line with Scripture. Dave makes a habit of being outside.

As does Logos_X, Red77 and Redfin, let's be fair.

Not with Scripture.

With your interpretations of Scripture.

Which, by the way, have been recently pointed out by Balder as being in disagreement which each other.

:think: