BRXII Battle talk

[Kimberlyann]

Wrong again.

Since I've already shared the verse Logos shared that "says" it, now here are some that "teach" it.

I'll just cite the references this time, hoping that forcing you to actually open your Bible will cause you to become more familiar with its contents {gentle dig} :chuckle:

Matthew 9:25

Mark 5:42

Luke 7:15

John 11:44

Acts 9:40

Matthew 27:52

If those words don't teach you that the power and grace of God extend beyond death and the grave, I don't know what can.

How about this one?

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 8:38-39 NASB)

 

[Redfin]

How about this one?

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 8:38-39 NASB)

:chuckle:

By the way, I want to add my appreciation to Stephen and Kevin for putting themselves, their time and effort, and their care for souls, out there. Thanks, guys. :thumb:

 

[red77]

How about this one?

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 8:38-39 NASB)

:up:

One thing that really gets me about those who believe in eternal torment is when they say that universalists call God a liar.....
This means that every verse that says that God will reconcile all and save all really means that God never in fact intended to redeem all but only a few or some of his creation.....

Its just totally bizarre, doesnt God himself say that he wills that none should perish but have life? Didnt Jesus come for every single person on the planet, to be the saviour of the world? Or was his intent only to save some or a few from an eternity of agony and not really the world after all....

it seems that those who cling to the monstrosity of endless agony believe that God was incapable of being the saviour of all men for whatever reason they choose that to be - be it mans free will to reject or whatever....

and yet God says it is his will for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, that Jesus paid a ransom for all to be testified to in due time , even the disciples didnt think that many would be saved but what answer were they given? "With man this is impossible but with God ALL things are possible".....so even those who think that man can somehow mess up this plan must also think that ALL things are not possible with God....

universalists make God out to be a liar because they believe that God can and does actually restore everything.....? Go figure.....

 

[Kimberlyann]

:chuckle:

By the way, I want to add my appreciation to Stephen and Kevin for putting themselves, their time and effort, and their care for souls, out there. Thanks, guys. :thumb:

Yes....

Thanks be to Stephen and Kevin for a great debate. :BRAVO:


You guys are the best! :cheers:

 

[logos_x]

:chuckle:

By the way, I want to add my appreciation to Stephen and Kevin for putting themselves, their time and effort, and their care for souls, out there. Thanks, guys. :thumb:

My pleasure.

 

[Kimberlyann]

:up:

One thing that really gets me about those who believe in eternal torment is when they say that universalists call God a liar.....
This means that every verse that says that God will reconcile all and save all really means that God never in fact intended to redeem all but only a few or some of his creation.....

Its just totally bizarre, doesnt God himself say that he wills that none should perish but have life? Didnt Jesus come for every single person on the planet, to be the saviour of the world? Or was his intent only to save some or a few from an eternity of agony and not really the world after all....

it seems that those who cling to the monstrosity of endless agony believe that God was incapable of being the saviour of all men for whatever reason they choose that to be - be it mans free will to reject or whatever....

and yet God says it is his will for all men to come to a knowledge of the truth, that Jesus paid a ransom for all to be testified to in due time , even the disciples didnt think that many would be saved but what answer were they given? "With man this is impossible but with God ALL things are possible".....so even those who think that man can somehow mess up this plan must also think that ALL things are not possible with God....

universalists make God out to be a liar because they believe that God can and does actually restore everything.....? Go figure.....

Yeah, go figure. :liberals:


Nice post. :thumb:

 

[ChasClean]

When you can come up with one single verse in the Bible that clearly shows one individual (angel, human, or otherwise), being allowed out of the Lake of Fire, or leaving the Lake of Fire, then your argument might become more legitimate. It doesn't matter how many people you can say agree with what you say, your basic premise is destroyed by the light of the Word of God. It doesn't matter how many convincing arguments you try to write up, you cannot ever and will not ever be able to quantify the belief that someone in the Lake of Fire comes out.

Tell you what PK. I'll make you a deal.

Rev. 6: 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Explain to me how in ch. 6 the sun turns black, the moon red, the stars fell to the earth, the sky has receeded and every mountain and island has been removed.

“Then”, that’s the way the next verse starts. Verse 15, THEN the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

My goodness. The sun is black. The stars have fallen to the earth. The sky has receeded. Every mountain and island removed. And…. People are still running around alive???

Not only that, but they are hiding among the mountains which have been removed. They want the mountains which have been removed to fall on them.

You explain that to me and I will explain why there is no mention of anyone being let out of the Lake of Fire.

You get my point? My point is, I would think twice before I made the symbolic Lake of Fire a dividing line of whether or not God was going to torment millions for eternity as a sign of His justice.

Is that going to be your defense to God when He asks you why you continued to preach such a doctrine? To which God would likely reply, “My goodness PK. Didn’t you know symbolism when you saw it?”

 

[red77]

Tell you what PK. I'll make you a deal.

Rev. 6: 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Explain to me how in ch. 6 the sun turns black, the moon red, the stars fell to the earth, the sky has receeded and every mountain and island has been removed.

“Then”, that’s the way the next verse starts. Verse 15, THEN the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

My goodness. The sun is black. The stars have fallen to the earth. The sky has receeded. Every mountain and island removed. And…. People are still running around alive???

Not only that, but they are hiding among the mountains which have been removed. They want the mountains which have been removed to fall on them.

You explain that to me and I will explain why there is no mention of anyone being let out of the Lake of Fire.

You get my point? My point is, I would think twice before I made the symbolic Lake of Fire a dividing line of whether or not God was going to torment millions for eternity as a sign of His justice.

Is that going to be your defense to God when He asks you why you continued to preach such a doctrine? To which God would likely reply, “My goodness PK. Didn’t you know symbolism when you saw it?”

:thumb:

Great post! Unfortunately though the pastor thinks the lake of fire is literal despite the screaming symbolism of revelation....it bemuses me constantly, with a passage such as "then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire" you'd think that any possibility of it being literal would be vanquished as death being 'thrown' into anywhere wouldnt make any literal sense.....but unless the pastor has changed his mind all of a sudden then you're likely to get the same answer I got - the lake of fire is a literal burning lake and there's no symbology at all......... :idunno:

 

[ChasClean]

Problem is, it is not the absolute knowledge that saves you. It is the faith that God is real and the Bible is true despite all "evidence" to the contrary that saves you.

Your Faith Does Not Save You. You are saved by grace. Through faith. Faith is the vehicle. How are your going to know what Jesus has done unless you come to a place of believing it?

And... it only becomes your faith, after God decides to give it to you. It is the faith of Jesus Christ you have been given. Not your own faith generated by yourself. You are not even able to generate your next breath by yourself. How can you even think you could generate spiritual life within yourself?

None of it, None, is from yourself. Just like the passage says.

The salvation is not from yourself.

The grace is not from yourself.

The faith is not from yourself.

 

[ChasClean]

Whoa,

Doing good Refin. Keep up the good work!

 

[Zadok]

:thumb:

Great post! Unfortunately though the pastor thinks the lake of fire is literal despite the screaming symbolism of revelation....it bemuses me constantly, with a passage such as "then death and hell were thrown into the lake of fire" you'd think that any possibility of it being literal would be vanquished as death being 'thrown' into anywhere wouldnt make any literal sense.....but unless the pastor has changed his mind all of a sudden then you're likely to get the same answer I got - the lake of fire is a literal burning lake and there's no symbology at all......... :idunno:

But, Red77, surely you realize that nothing is coming out of the Lake of Theos/Pur. And what becomes of "eternal death" & "eternal hell"? Oh darn, death and hell are consummated in the Lake of Theos. Yep, He eats death and hell.

And while the advocates of everlasting despair, and everlasting death, and everlasting curse are still speaking........let us have a brief interuption from the Voice that declares.....

"And the leaves of the Tree of Life are for the healing of the nations. And there shall no longer be a curse upon anything."

 

[belboy87]

Afew mote thoughts...

The lake of fire has quickly become PK's "pivotal point" in this discussion. Has he actually proved that people will be there eternally, TO BEGIN WITH? Or is this just an assumed... he has created a premise of eternity, again, based on words that don't mean eternal... hmmm...

Afew more things... what do defenders of Eternal Torment claim happens to the souls of those who never heard the gospel?

Afew more thoughts for you out there who are Universalists... you might find this line of thought fascinating.

I believe that there is no age of accountability. If I WERE an ET believer... I would HAVE to believe in the age of accountibility... and this would (logically) force me to support abortion. Why? Because every abortion MUST BE a guarenteed soul into heavan. Despite it's temporary atrocity, it is committing an eternal triumph. Right?

The age of accountability issue was created with NO Biblical evidence... (it's humurous to watch them scramble for some). WHY? So that Eternal Torment could be justified... it's ok to burn grown men who never had a chance, but it's not ok to do it to kids.

I believe that children are held accountable... how? Because death no longer impedes their decision!

Ahh.... what glorious freedom I have in NOT being tied down to extra-biblical doctrines like... Age of Accountability.

 

[red77]

Afew mote thoughts...

The lake of fire has quickly become PK's "pivotal point" in this discussion. Has he actually proved that people will be there eternally, TO BEGIN WITH? Or is this just an assumed... he has created a premise of eternity, again, based on words that don't mean eternal... hmmm...

Afew more things... what do defenders of Eternal Torment claim happens to the souls of those who never heard the gospel?

Afew more thoughts for you out there who are Universalists... you might find this line of thought fascinating.

I believe that there is no age of accountability. If I WERE an ET believer... I would HAVE to believe in the age of accountibility... and this would (logically) force me to support abortion. Why? Because every abortion MUST BE a guarenteed soul into heavan. Despite it's temporary atrocity, it is committing an eternal triumph. Right?

The age of accountability issue was created with NO Biblical evidence... (it's humurous to watch them scramble for some). WHY? So that Eternal Torment could be justified... it's ok to burn grown men who never had a chance, but it's not ok to do it to kids.

I believe that children are held accountable... how? Because death no longer impedes their decision!

Ahh.... what glorious freedom I have in NOT being tied down to extra-biblical doctrines like... Age of Accountability.

You're absolutely right, God would be a monster to most of those who believe in ET - if he tormented babies/young children for eternity - but not if does it to grown men and women, there's never a consistent argument among those as regards the 'age of accountability' either (except among certain calvivnists who believe that there's no age, even as babies if you're not the elect and not old enough to understand you still fry.....)
I think the answer you'd get about those never hearing the gospel is the passage about the knolledge being written on mens hearts and that they're without excuse....although why that means that those people would suffer in the LOF for all eternity is beyond me....

Another thing that occurs to me is that how could those who believe in ET consider having children in the first place? Wouldnt that be such a selfish thing to do - to bring a life into the world with the threat of endless/agonising suffering hanging over their head? most people who believe in ET think only a fraction of the world will be saved as they so often trot the verse out about 'narrow being the way to life and broad the path to destruction'...(although then again this doesnt say anything about hell or an eternal fiery pit unless its interpteted to fit the doctrine....)

There's a myriad arguments to the pointlessness and hideousness of this doctrine of unending suffering....

 

[CabinetMaker]

Logos_X already has, in the BR. :first:

Redfin, are all people who believe in universal salvation as poor at bible study as your are?

LogosA-PKQ12 Are you saying they can't?

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

The death refered to is spiritual death in sin. Those that accept Jesus are reborn out of that death.

So one of your "proof texts" is been shown to NOT endorse a chance to accept Jesus after death.

P.S.
Note that the the verse has a requirement for belief. Keep tha in mind as I respond to the rest of your posts.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I didn't miss your point, but you've missed the truth.

John 6:40 - For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life..."

:think:

You need to read the whole verse, not just the words you like. Please note the words that I have highlighted in red. Again, you see the requirement for belief.

So you will undoubtedly say that people after they die can still come to believe. I feel this might be a good time to remind you to whom the bible is written: It is written to us on this earth here and now.

Again, this verse does not prove that there is a chance after death to change your mind. (Note: The NIV translates behold as looks to. THe verse is not saying that you must physically see Jesus. It is saying you must look to Him and believe in Him as your saviour.)

 

[belboy87]

Redfin, are all people who believe in universal salvation as poor at bible study as your are?

:box:

 

[red77]

You need to read the whole verse, not just the words you like. Please note the words that I have highlighted in red. Again, you see the requirement for belief.

So you will undoubtedly say that people after they die can still come to believe. I feel this might be a good time to remind you to whom the bible is written: It is written to us on this earth here and now.

Again, this verse does not prove that there is a chance after death to change your mind. (Note: The NIV translates behold as looks to. THe verse is not saying that you must physically see Jesus. It is saying you must look to Him and believe in Him as your saviour.)

CM - Do you think that when God says he came to save the world he really only meant a fraction of it? That he knew beforehand that only a small percentage would make it to heaven?

Do you think that all things are possible for God? what did Jesus say to his disciples after they asked 'who then can be saved'...? Do you not think that God already knows that left to man he wouldnt make it in his fallible state? What do you think Jesus's answer to the disciples meant...?

how can Jesus be the ransom for all to be testified in due time if only such a small part of the world is actually ransomed?

How can God be the saviour of ALL men ESPECIALLY of believers if only those who believe in the here and now are actually redeemed?

your problem is is that your doctrine automatically has God failing in his will before the sacrifice of Jesus took effect, instead of thinking it possible for God to unify everything you're already believing that jesus couldnt in fact save the world.....and in so doing all the verses that speak of God's restoration have to be distoted and twisted into fitting a doctrine where God only saves a tiny percentage of all men........please tell me....how is that the 'good news' of the gospels....

 

[CabinetMaker]

Wrong again.

Since I've already shared the verse Logos shared that "says" it, now here are some that "teach" it.

I'll just cite the references this time, hoping that forcing you to actually open your Bible will cause you to become more familiar with its contents {gentle dig} :chuckle:

Matthew 9:25
25After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.

So a physical resurection on earth teaches that you get to accept Jesus if you go to the lake of fire in the afterlife? Please tell me your kidding. If you are serious I submit that it is not my knowledge of the contents of the Bible that are the issue here.

Mark 5:42 42Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished.

same story as Mathew 9 just in Luke. Same response.

Luke 7:1515The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.

Another example of Jesus's authority over physical death. Same response as above - you don't understand what you are reading.

John 11:44 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

the raising of Lazurus. Same thing as above.

Acts 9:40 40Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, "Tabitha, get up." She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

Peter's faith in Jesus was great enough that Peter was able to excercise Jesus' authority over physical death. It is no different than the versers above.

Matthew 27:52 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

This is the a resurection of the saints to go to heaven with Jesus. These are saints so they are not going to judgement, they are going to life.

If those words don't teach you that the power and grace of God extend beyond death and the grave, I don't know what can.

Those words do not teach what they claim. The verses teach that God and Jesus have absolute autority over physical death. There is nothing in these verses that teach there is a second chance to recieve Jesus as your Lord and saviour after death. Men live once, then judgement.

Spend some more time with your Bible Redfin. The truth is there, open your heart to the Holy Spirit and that truth will set you free!

 

[Redfin]

The death refered to is spiritual death in sin. Those that accept Jesus are reborn out of that death.

That is an unsubstantiated assertion resorted to through the need to prop up the faulty doctrine of ET.

So you will undoubtedly say that people after they die can still come to believe.

Why not? You have admitted as much yourself.

I feel this might be a good time to remind you to whom the bible is written: It is written to us on this earth here and now.

Great! Does that mean it can’t tell us here and now anything about the possibilities for the hereafter?

Again, this verse does not prove that there is a chance after death to change your mind.

No, but it does "say” and “teach” that life is still available to those who are dead, which is what you asked for. Changing your requirement to “prove” in mid-stream does not become you or enhance your arguments, CM.

(THe verse is not saying that you must physically see Jesus.

No, it does not say that you “must.” But if you do, and believe, life is still available.

It is saying you must look to Him and believe in Him as your saviour.)

Christian Universalism as I understand it has no problem with that statement.

 

[Damian]

Daniel 12:2 actually affirms this very strongly:
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt

Does this OT passage teach soul sleep or temporary death (ceasing to exist) until the judgment day?

Why would a loving God allow people to spend all eternity in a Lake of Fire?

This question is at the heart of many different systems of false teaching. I will spend more time in a future post elaborating on this question, but two particular systems of theology have branched off from this question: Universalism and Annihilationism. My basic premise is this: Those who ask this question are missing out on the eternal righteousness and holiness of God. God is just as Holy and just as Righteous as He is Loving. We cannot take one of the attributes of God and elevate them above all of His other attributes. A bigger question would be why would a loving and just God allow His Heaven to be filled with individuals who came apart from the only way that He designed for them to get there? Why would God cast Satan and his fallen angels out of Heaven if he were going to one day allow them to come back

You pose an interesting question: "Why would a loving God allow people to spend all eternity in a Lake of Fire?

Your answer implies that God's "Love" and "Holiness" are separate attributes. By doing so, you create a schism in the Godhead;God has two attributes that are in conflict with each other, love and justice. And you would have us believe that God works out this "conflict" by creating an eternal heaven to express his everlasting love and an eternal hell to express is his everlasting wrath and judgment.

But the Bible, first and foremost, declares that "God is love." Love is not simply an attribute of God; it is the essence of God. And your theology does "injustice" to God's love.

A bigger question would be why would a loving and just God allow His Heaven to be filled with individuals who came apart from the only way that He designed for them to get there?designed for them to get there?

A more crucial question is why is God's love and mercy incapable of overcoming his wrath and judgment?

The Christian is called to love by practicing forgiveness and letting go of judgment. Are we to believe that the Christian is held to a higher moral standard than God?

Another premise that I will seek to establish is this: IF the Lake of Fire were not eternal, then the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, a perfect, sinless, and eternal being, would not have been necessary! In other words a temporary punishment would require a lesser sacrifice then the sacrifice of an eternal, divine being!

If Jesus Christ took on the sin of the world, then God's wrath and justice has already been satisfied. The assertion that individuals will spend an eternity in hell implies that Christ's sacrificial atonement was incomplete and unsatisfactory. Evidently, Christ died in vain. I find this theology to be completely irrational.