Bob Enyart - Open Theism - Biblical Events Not Happening?

[Pettrix]

In regards to the open theism view that Bob Enyart has. Does he believe that God can CHANGE the Scriptures that have promised certain things. For example:

1 - Can God NOT have the rapture (as it is a prophesied event)?
2 - Can God cancel out the tribulation period (a prophecy) and not have it occur?
3 - Can God actually revoke his promise of a earthly millennial kingdom (a prophecy)?

I am trying to understand the theology behind it and while I am NOT a Calvinist, I don't completely understand or agree with open theism. I find it troubling that God can REVOKE certain promises He made in the Bible. Where would it end? Can He revoke our eternal salvation for those who trusted in Him?

:think:

 

[Minerva]

In regards to the open theism view that Bob Enyart has. Does he believe that God can CHANGE the Scriptures that have promised certain things. For example:

1 - Can God NOT have the rapture (as it is a prophesied event)?
2 - Can God cancel out the tribulation period (a prophecy) and not have it occur?
3 - Can God actually revoke his promise of a earthly millennial kingdom (a prophecy)?

I am trying to understand the theology behind it and while I am NOT a Calvinist, I don't completely understand or agree with open theism. I find it troubling that God can REVOKE certain promises He made in the Bible. Where would it end? Can He revoke our eternal salvation for those who trusted in Him?

:think:

Is there a particular thread that lead you to ask these questions...if so, which one so that I might look it over.

I can already tell you that in my opinion, God would not revoke anything like this, unless I missed something, that just wouldn't make any sense at all.

 

[Letsargue]

Is there a particular thread that lead you to ask these questions...if so, which one so that I might look it over.

I can already tell you that in my opinion, God would not revoke anything like this, unless I missed something, that just wouldn't make any sense at all.

It’s called repentance; God repented several times and commends us to repent also.
So yes, God can repent or (revoke) his word anytime He chooses. “RE-VOKE” is not the proper word, “RE-PENT” is.

---Paul---

 

[Yorzhik]

In regards to the open theism view that Bob Enyart has. Does he believe that God can CHANGE the Scriptures that have promised certain things. For example:

1 - Can God NOT have the rapture (as it is a prophesied event)?
2 - Can God cancel out the tribulation period (a prophecy) and not have it occur?
3 - Can God actually revoke his promise of a earthly millennial kingdom (a prophecy)?

I am trying to understand the theology behind it and while I am NOT a Calvinist, I don't completely understand or agree with open theism. I find it troubling that God can REVOKE certain promises He made in the Bible. Where would it end? Can He revoke our eternal salvation for those who trusted in Him?

:think:

God places goodness ahead of His promises. If God, according to His word said he would destroy a nation, but they repent, then God would be glad to change His prophecy. When God compares prophecy to love - the greatest of these is love.

So if there were reasons that resulted in God being *good* to not do what He said, then they would trump the rapture, the tribulation, and the millennial kingdom. I can't think of anything for the rapture or the millennial kingdom, but I'm surprized you mention the tribulation since God is already going to cut that short, so why couldn't he cut it to really really short as to not happen? That would even UPHOLD a prophecy.

 

[Letsargue]

God places goodness ahead of His promises. If God, according to His word said he would destroy a nation, but they repent, then God would be glad to change His prophecy. When God compares prophecy to love - the greatest of these is love.

So if there were reasons that resulted in God being *good* to not do what He said, then they would trump the rapture, the tribulation, and the millennial kingdom. I can't think of anything for the rapture or the millennial kingdom, but I'm surprized you mention the tribulation since God is already going to cut that short, so why couldn't he cut it to really really short as to not happen? That would even UPHOLD a prophecy.

If God’s Covenant was just to man, it would be somewhat different concerning him destroying the Earth; but His Covenant was to all flesh, every Creature.
-- Is. – 34:1,2 -- Gen. 9:16 – Rev. 19:17,18 –
So every Creature has received a Promise from God. Not just man. How can God destroy all the Creatures while destroying the Earth??? Are the Creatures evil??

---Paul---

 

[Pettrix]

So if there were reasons that resulted in God being *good* to not do what He said, then they would trump the rapture, the tribulation, and the millennial kingdom. I can't think of anything for the rapture or the millennial kingdom, but I'm surprized you mention the tribulation since God is already going to cut that short, so why couldn't he cut it to really really short as to not happen? That would even UPHOLD a prophecy.

Wouldn't that make God a liar?? If He promised something and then did not fulfill it, the Bible could not be trusted & God could not be trusted:jawdrop:

So, then God can REPENT and actually NOT send people who don't trust him into heaven instead of hell??

 

[godrulz]

God's changing His mind would be consistent with His character and principles of the Word. The basics of salvation will not change. It would undermine His holiness, love, and justice to send unbelievers to heaven and believers to hell.

Some prophecies are conditional...if...then....others are declarations of God's intentions that He will bring to pass regardless what man does. Jonah and Hezekiah are conditional prophecies. The prophetic view of Revelation is something God purposes to bring to pass by His ability (Is. 46; 48). They do not have a conditional element (except as it relates to individual salvation) in regards to the judging of nations and restoration of Israel. Rev. 6-22 will unfold according to plan in a general sense. Minute details that may be variable are not in the scope of the prophecy.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Wouldn't that make God a liar?? If He promised something and then did not fulfill it, the Bible could not be trusted & God could not be trusted:jawdrop:

So, then God can REPENT and actually NOT send people who don't trust him into heaven instead of hell??

Meditate on God's word....

Jeremiah 18:7-10 “The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 “if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 “if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

God can act and react to the actions of His creation. God is not a slave to His own foreknowledge. God is a living, loving and merciful God who can change and adjust as He sees fit.

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Wouldn't that make God a liar?? If He promised something and then did not fulfill it, the Bible could not be trusted & God could not be trusted:jawdrop:

God is more deserving of trust when he doesn’t blindly fulfill prophecy.

The bureaucrats passed a law that says a truck can only weigh so much. I'm sure in general there is a good reason for that law, however, when one of the largest forest fires in America erupted, we shipped tons of water to help fight the fire. Many of those trucks were stopped by bureaucrats and forced to dump some of the water on the ground and delay the trucks for a mandatory 3 hours for being over the weight limit.

Is that what you meant by "trust"?

I suppose a bureaucrat has a certain amount of "reliability" in his actions - but that's not the kind of trust I, particularly, highly value.

Love is more important than prophecy. Don't you agree?

So, then God can REPENT and actually NOT send people who don't trust him into heaven instead of hell??

That sentence has a double negative in it so I'm not sure how you meant for it to read but I guess you are wondering if Open theists believe God will fly off the handle.

No one questions the reliability of their mother even though we don't deny that she can change her mind. If you trust your mother to do right, shouldn't you trust God?

Isn't it funny how quickly the settled view wants to throw away their trust in God and the Bible?

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Can God cancel out the tribulation period (a prophecy) and not have it occur?

I suggest that God has already promised to do this - just like He stopped the angel from carrying out the full punishment he had promised in David's time. Jesus has said that the time of the Tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect. It will likely not be a full seven years. - praise God!

 

[Lighthouse]

God places goodness ahead of His promises. If God, according to His word said he would destroy a nation, but they repent, then God would be glad to change His prophecy. When God compares prophecy to love - the greatest of these is love.

So if there were reasons that resulted in God being *good* to not do what He said, then they would trump the rapture, the tribulation, and the millennial kingdom. I can't think of anything for the rapture or the millennial kingdom, but I'm surprized you mention the tribulation since God is already going to cut that short, so why couldn't he cut it to really really short as to not happen? That would even UPHOLD a prophecy.

Not to mention He put the tribulation on hold once already.

 

[patman]

Wouldn't that make God a liar?? If He promised something and then did not fulfill it, the Bible could not be trusted & God could not be trusted:jawdrop:

So, then God can REPENT and actually NOT send people who don't trust him into heaven instead of hell??

Don't you know God is righteous and just? Surly you do. Why is changing his mind a lie to you? If he sees justice in doing something, if he think it is right, and you are someone with questions such as these, then who are you to call him a liar?

Can't you rationalize the difference between a lie and a conditional stated outcome? God has it in his word a way for him to change his mind if he sees it as better and more righteous to do so...

You would rather have it appear that God "not lie" then have him pour out his wrath on those who repented?? What will you say to those who repented "Ohh, I know you repented, but you get no grace or forgiveness for your sins?"

You seem to prefer this way, and you for some reason think this makes him trust worthy to do what he said no matter what happens? So you think we should trust God who punishes those he saved??

You must realize his promises for destruction are for the evil. Those whom he has redeemed are made new and are sinless. God's promise is still in effect, if there is no one to pour out wrath, God will not do it anyway.

 

[Punisher1984]

In regards to the open theism view that Bob Enyart has. Does he believe that God can CHANGE the Scriptures that have promised certain things. For example:

1 - Can God NOT have the rapture (as it is a prophesied event)?
2 - Can God cancel out the tribulation period (a prophecy) and not have it occur?
3 - Can God actually revoke his promise of a earthly millennial kingdom (a prophecy)?

I am trying to understand the theology behind it and while I am NOT a Calvinist, I don't completely understand or agree with open theism. I find it troubling that God can REVOKE certain promises He made in the Bible. Where would it end? Can He revoke our eternal salvation for those who trusted in Him?

:think:

One might as well ask if "god" can make a rock so large that he can't lift it or whether or not "god" can make Saturday have a color: the answers to those questions will make just as much sense as the answers to your questions.

 

[GuySmiley]

Wouldn't that make God a liar?? If He promised something and then did not fulfill it, the Bible could not be trusted & God could not be trusted:jawdrop:

So, then God can REPENT and actually NOT send people who don't trust him into heaven instead of hell??

No! God can be trusted to be loving and good because that is His unchanging nature. Of course God can be trusted all the time. Its a matter of what He can be trusted to do. You want Him to be trusted to follow through with His word, even if it means blessing the evil, or punishing the good. That's not what the Bible says God will do. God can be trusted to do good when people repent, even if He said He'd punish them earlier. God can be trusted to punish the wicked, even if He said He'd bless them earlier.

God can be trusted to do the right thing all the time.

We trust God for who He is, not because He signed a contract.

 

[Yorzhik]

Wouldn't that make God a liar?? If He promised something and then did not fulfill it, the Bible could not be trusted & God could not be trusted:jawdrop:

No, a liar is someone who intends to do something other than he says he will do. For instance, lets say I told someone I was going to destroy them (in, I don't know, how about 40 days?), knowing the future exhaustively that I was not. THAT would be a liar. You wouldn't trust a God that would do that, would you?

So, then God can REPENT and actually NOT send people who don't trust him into heaven instead of hell??

If the Settled View were true, then God declared evil from His own hands at creation. Do you understand the implications of this?

 

[Letsargue]

No, a liar is someone who intends to do something other than he says he will do. For instance, lets say I told someone I was going to destroy them (in, I don't know, how about 40 days?), knowing the future exhaustively that I was not. THAT would be a liar. You wouldn't trust a God that would do that, would you?


If the Settled View were true, then God declared evil from His own hands at creation. Do you understand the implications of this?

SIR: Why would anyone try to repent for God??? You cannot repent for God; God will repent of anything he chooses to repent of without anyone else's help. (repent means to CHANGE your mind), therefore God can repent or CHANGE his mind of anything HE CHOOSES TO. Don't you agree???

---Paul---

 

[Jackson]

Let's see...didn't God promise Israel that he would deliver them from Egypt and take them to the promissed land. Why yes I do believe He did.

OH...but wait they had a small problem with being stiffnecked. So did they enter the promissed land. I don't think so.

God promissed it but they screwed it up. So they missed out. Sounds like God had a condition or two on their entering the promissed land.

 

[Letsargue]

Wouldn't that make God a liar?? If He promised something and then did not fulfill it, the Bible could not be trusted & God could not be trusted:jawdrop:

So, then God can REPENT and actually NOT send people who don't trust him into heaven instead of hell??

I think you're missing the point; God CAN do something else good or better than the stated Word; such as, if God said he will destroy you for a sin and you repent of it, then God will repent of it also. But if God said that He will send you to Paradise for your goodness, He can't repent of that unless you repent of doing GOOD, which would be you committing a sin. God cannot sacrifice anything bad for the good, God can sacrifice the good for the bad. (In other words).

---Paul---

 

[thelaqachisnext]

I suggest that God has already promised to do this - just like He stopped the angel from carrying out the full punishment he had promised in David's time. Jesus has said that the time of the Tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect. It will likely not be a full seven years. - praise God!

Oh yes it will!
Shortened days are not shortened years, sir, and His Word has explained what Jesus meant, in several places, for the diligent to learn His plan from.
The sun, moon, and stars will cease to shine for one third of the twenty four hour day, making the days of that last half of the tribulation sixteen hour days so that all flesh will not perish frin the great heat, when the sun shines seven times brighter -as seven days- and the moon shines seven times brighter -as the sun in one day.
And all brought about because the earth will be moved out of it's orbit, turned upside down, and skipping about as a hunted roe, and staggering as a drunken man.
It is not possible that the seven years will be one day less than seven, to fullfill the teaching in the schoolmaster, which Schoolmaster is the living oracles committed only to the Jews, as seen by Moses, to copy as the Truth of the heavenly Plan, to teach His One Way for all Adamkind to be redeemed; which plan was complete from the beginning of creation.
Open Thiesm is ignorance of God's Word and blasphemy against His Word.

 

[Philetus]

In regards to the open theism view that Bob Enyart has. Does he believe that God can CHANGE the Scriptures that have promised certain things. For example:

1 - Can God NOT have the rapture (as it is a prophesied event)?
2 - Can God cancel out the tribulation period (a prophecy) and not have it occur?
3 - Can God actually revoke his promise of a earthly millennial kingdom (a prophecy)?

I am trying to understand the theology behind it and while I am NOT a Calvinist, I don't completely understand or agree with open theism. I find it troubling that God can REVOKE certain promises He made in the Bible. Where would it end? Can He revoke our eternal salvation for those who trusted in Him?

:think:

Your assumption that all Open Theists believe in a rapture, just seven years of tribulation and a literal 1000 year reign isn't accurate. Not every body gets their theology from the “Left Behind” series or talk radio.

I, for one, wish those who ascribe to an Open View of the future would go all the way and realize that to continue the debate on such terms is pointless. Apocalyptic genre need not be taken literally. Some Open Theists have a tendency to be stuck in old ruts like dispensationalism and millennialism and are forced to see God changing his mind at every turn and juncture. So you ask a good question! even if it is for the wrong reason.

I’m an Open Theist, and cannot take those biblical texts literally as your OP indicates. God is faithful and consistent! He can be ‘trusted’, believed and has given no one any reason at any time to not fully expect Him to continue to be faithful and consistent.

Christ has come and will come again. God has established his kingdom. And though his reign is being resisted, his victory is sure. He will finish what he has started. Some of us believe that instead of the ‘escapism’ of the rapture, God’s plan is to send believers into the world. Some days are just more ‘tribulating’ than others, but the kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdom of our Christ and the Kingdom of God will last forever.

It just remains to be seen who will and who won’t enter it.