Nang
TOL Subscriber
Your problem comprehending, not mine . . .
Blast from the past!
- Thread starter Tambora
- Start date
Your problem comprehending, not mine . . .
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Exactly . . . you are on point . . .
God created Satan and all the angels good.
What happened?
Did God ordain what happened, or is God to blame for what happened?
What do you think?
Eagles Wings
New member
See my signature.
Last edited:
Eagles Wings
New member
It is the work of Satan to have us believe that suffering is meaningless. This is the struggle for Job. What was ordained by God, ultimately accomplished a higher purpose.
Eagles Wings
New member
The Belgic Confession
Article 13
The Doctrine of God's Providence
We believe that this good God, after he created all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will, in such a way that nothing happens in this world without his orderly arrangement.
Yet God is not the author of, nor can he be charged with, the sin that occurs.
For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that he arranges and does his work very well and justly even when the devils and wicked men act unjustly.
We do not wish to inquire with undue curiosity into what he does that surpasses human understanding and is beyond our ability to comprehend. But in all humility and reverence we adore the just judgments of God, which are hidden from us, being content to be Christ's disciples, so as to learn only what he shows us in his Word, without going beyond those limits.
This doctrine gives us unspeakable comfort since it teaches us that nothing can happen to us by chance but only by the arrangement of our gracious heavenly Father.
He watches over us with fatherly care, keeping all creatures under his control, so that not one of the hairs on our heads (for they are all numbered) nor even a little bird can fall to the ground without the will of our Father.
In this thought we rest, knowing that he holds in check the devils and all our enemies, who cannot hurt us without his permission and will.
For that reason we reject the damnable error of the Epicureans, who say that God involves himself in nothing and leaves everything to chance.
Matthew 10:29-30
Article 13
The Doctrine of God's Providence
We believe that this good God, after he created all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will, in such a way that nothing happens in this world without his orderly arrangement.
Yet God is not the author of, nor can he be charged with, the sin that occurs.
For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that he arranges and does his work very well and justly even when the devils and wicked men act unjustly.
We do not wish to inquire with undue curiosity into what he does that surpasses human understanding and is beyond our ability to comprehend. But in all humility and reverence we adore the just judgments of God, which are hidden from us, being content to be Christ's disciples, so as to learn only what he shows us in his Word, without going beyond those limits.
This doctrine gives us unspeakable comfort since it teaches us that nothing can happen to us by chance but only by the arrangement of our gracious heavenly Father.
He watches over us with fatherly care, keeping all creatures under his control, so that not one of the hairs on our heads (for they are all numbered) nor even a little bird can fall to the ground without the will of our Father.
In this thought we rest, knowing that he holds in check the devils and all our enemies, who cannot hurt us without his permission and will.
For that reason we reject the damnable error of the Epicureans, who say that God involves himself in nothing and leaves everything to chance.
Matthew 10:29-30
That has nothing to do with the subject. I showed God's decree that he did not command what they did, and it didn't even enter into his mind that people could do such a thing.
I see there is another wolf in the house.
Jeremiah 19
4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),
4 “Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents 5 (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind),
Eagles Wings
New member
God commanded them to obey the law of Lev 20:2-5.
They sinned against God.
What else is there to say about this passage?
That's just it.
Satan did not do anything to Job except what he was given PERMISSION to do.
You have already said that what Satan did to Job was wicked.
So, we have Satan asking to inflict evil upon Job.
And God said, "Sure, go ahead".
Now, if that evil that Satan inflicted on Job could only be done if God granted permission , then the evil that was inflicted upon Job was per God's permission only.
To put another way, God's permission to go ahead and do evil to Job WAS the cause of evil being inflicted on Job (ie. couldn't have happened without it).
Here's what you have .....
God created a creature (Satan) good, and that creature turned rabid and only wanted to attack.
But God has another creature (Job) that did not turn rabid, but was righteous.
God was protecting Job from Satan, but then turns His rabid creature loose on Job TO DO EVIL.
That's kinda equivalent of having a rabid pit bull dog chained in the yard, but when a healthy school kid comes into the yard and the dog starts snarling and licking his chops toward the child, you turn it loose to attack the child.
Now, pardon me, but I don't think you can start hollering that you were in no way culpable of the child being attacked..
Because the dog could not have done what it did without your HELP of setting him loose to so.
And here's where it gets really ugly ........; you then shoot the dog for doing just what you set it loose to do.
The cause of Job being hurt was God removing His protective hand from Job.
It could not have happened otherwise.
That's like hiring a hit man to kill your spouse, and then try to claim that you were not the cause of your spouse's death because you didn't pull the trigger.
It's absurd to say that God was in no way culpable of what happened to Job, but that's what you are left with when you believe that "God foreordains everything that comes to pass - without a doubt".
Ya'll think the story of Job was to show God's sovereignty in dictating everything that happens.
I don't.
I think the story of Job is about God removing His hand of protection from the faithful.
And the story of the Babylonian army's attack on Israel is about God removing His hand of protection from the unfaithful.
Job was attacked because he was righteous.
Israel was attacked because it was not righteous.
Which lines up with God having no respect of persons, and the sun and rain are blessings for both the righteous and the unrighteous alike.
And, BTW, both (the faithful Job and the unfaithful Israel) were promised to be more prosperous than they were previously.
What meaning do you think suffering is supposed to be?
Well then, he was still struggling with it because God never told Job why he was being inflicted.
Didn't mention a word about it.
Sounds similar to those mothers that make their child sick so they can later comfort the child and say they will make it all better; and thus be the hero.
That's kinda twisted, don't ya think?
Sonnet
New member
Who is Knight Tambora?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Then why bother denying that you believe the things I say you believe, since you clearly do believe them and even admit as much shortly before saying something that contradicts yourself?
Why not just say that God is the author of sin and He is just. Who cares if it contradicts? All you have to say is that it doesn't really contradict it only seems to us mere mortals to contradict?
Why pick and choose which contradictions you're willing to state and which ones you claim "rob God of His attributes of omniscience and omnipotence"? Maybe they only seem to rob God if those attributes to us mere mortals!
The owner of this site.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
So you blame God for Satan's acts?
I suppose you think God gave Adam permission to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, too?
No. Both Satan and Adam are held accountable for their wickedness, and that is quite evident in Holy Scripture. Adam's acts brought death into the world and corrupted the human nature of all his progeny and Satan was dealty with on the cross by Jesus Christ, as promised He would to Eve. Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 4:14-15
The rest of your post is blasphemous, and I choose not to respond any further.
]
Nang
TOL Subscriber
God is light and there is no darkness in Him at all; therefore, He does not tempt man with evil and He does not use sin to get His way. Such activity on the part of Holy God would be contradictory to His nature.
God works good, not through sin, but despite sin. God brings good out of the fallen human condition. God shows His power through the defeat of Satan. Both manifested in this world by Jesus Christ on the cross.
What you are really doing, is denying the Gospel and accomplishments of Jesus Christ.
Could Satan have acted against Job in that way without God giving the go-ahead to do so?
God didn't tell them to go ahead like He said to Satan.
It's not blasphemous to tell what scripture says.
The root cause of Job being inflicted by Satan was per God removing His hand of protection from a righteous man and telling Satan to go right ahead.
Without that root cause, none of it would have happened to Job.
Maybe it only seems like it's contrary to His nature to us mere mortals, Nang!
Which sin did God not predestine? Just name one - any one at all.
Are you suggesting that God did not predestine the fall of man and that He has reacted to the fall in such a way as to bring good out of it?
You're starting to sound like an Open Theist, Nang!
Who would never have needed to be defeated unless God had predestined him to rebel and to take a third part of the angels in rebellion with him.
It's all just various sized puppets that your god is pulling the strings of.
Which, according to your doctrine didn't have to happen. God, according to you, could have simply wiped out sin by an arbitrary act is His divine will. The crucifixion amounts to stage dressing.
Oh yes, I had nearly forgotten that you're one of those "Calvinism is the gospel itself" idiots.
A note for those reading this exchange....
Why do you suppose that Nang NEVER answers a question when one is posed directly to her?
I pose a perfectly logical question based on her very own line of thinking and what do you get in response? Nothing. You just get another post, spouting more self-contradictory gibberish that any school boy old enough to tie his own shoes could figure out was silliness.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
There is a biblical principle that should be applied here, instead of you questioning God's culpability in the matters of wickedness . . it is found in Genesis 50:20:
" . . You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good . . ."
This supposed "root cause" is fallacious and out of your imagination only, for it does not harmonize with the outcome . . which was tremendous blessings received by Job.
You are evaluating these events humanisticly; not according to scriptural and spiritual principles.
Because of this, you blame God for Satanic acts. Please reconsider, according to another spiritual principle revealed in Matthew 12:31-37