Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

[patrick jane]

Amos 9 - KJV - [FONT=&quot]I saw the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot] standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 And the Lord God of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.[/FONT]

 

[Derf]

You are terribly mistaken in thinking that I gave you "my interpretation" because I gave you what the scripture itself says: and you deny what it says.

No, you gave me some scripture and then attached a meaning to it that wasn't readily apparent. I don't deny the scripture, but your interpretation was not in the scripture. here's a for-instance:

I just told you Gen 1:26-28 is prophecy speaking of the Son of Man:

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by daqq
You are terribly mistaken in thinking that I gave you "my interpretation" because I gave you what the scripture itself says: and you deny what it says.

No, you gave me some scripture and then attached a meaning to it that wasn't readily apparent. I don't deny the scripture, but your interpretation was not in the scripture. here's a for-instance:

Originally Posted by daqq
I just told you Gen 1:26-28 is prophecy speaking of the Son of Man:

Yes, of course, now comes the part where you start quoting one liners taken from their contexts on the next page or two pages later so that you can begin doing what you do. I've already seen how you argue from the other threads, where you turn what people say against them by either perverting their words or snipping them short, after the fact, and trying to make it seem as if they are the ones rejecting the Messiah or the scriptures in general: and yes, I have already seen how it is done to others in other threads, (no doubt there are least a handful of like-minded YEC's). And when you tried to do it to me here I did indeed put you on notice because I do not intend to allow you to get away with what I already know comes next. If you want to discuss these things at all with me you will need to stop taking my words out of their contexts and quote whole posts. It is plain as day what you are trying to do here. However, at the moment I feel no compulsion whatsoever to go any further with you because you do not even believe Paul. You already have a much greater problem on your hands than trying to prove your corrupt understanding of Gen1 at my expense. Trying to embarrass or shame people does not make your false understanding become true no matter how good it might make you feel about yourself.

 

[Right Divider]

Amos 9 - KJV - I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
3 And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them:
4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.
5 And the Lord God of hosts is he that toucheth the land, and it shall melt, and all that dwell therein shall mourn: and it shall rise up wholly like a flood; and shall be drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
6 It is he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name.
7 Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the Lord. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.
13 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.
14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.

:french:

Up and down work just fine with a globe.

 

[Derf]

:french:

Up and down work just fine with a globe.

But not with a sun and moon that stay at the same height and spin around in a plane. They don't go up ("rise") or down ("set").

 

[Derf]

Yes, of course, now comes the part where you start quoting one liners taken from their contexts on the next page or two pages later so that you can begin doing what you do. I've already seen how you argue from the other threads, where you turn what people say against them by either perverting their words or snipping them short, after the fact, and trying to make it seem as if they are the ones rejecting the Messiah or the scriptures in general: and yes, I have already seen how it is done to others in other threads, (no doubt there are least a handful of like-minded YEC's). And when you tried to do it to me here I did indeed put you on notice because I do not intend to allow you to get away with what I already know comes next. If you want to discuss these things at all with me you will need to stop taking my words out of their contexts and quote whole posts. It is plain as day what you are trying to do here. However, at the moment I feel no compulsion whatsoever to go any further with you because you do not even believe Paul. You already have a much greater problem on your hands than trying to prove your corrupt understanding of Gen1 at my expense. Trying to embarrass or shame people does not make your false understanding become true no matter how good it might make you feel about yourself.

I turn what people say against them when what they say is contradictory. If it doesn't feel good to you, then stop using contradictory arguments.

I'm very interested in what scripture says. And I'm interested in what people think scripture says. And sometimes I learn about how scripture goes together to give a better, clearer picture. But that requires the presenter (that would be you, in this case) to actually present something that has a decent basis--more than just, "if you were as smart or as discerning as I am, you would already know this"!

If you can't do that, then I agree there's no need for this conversation to go further. But if you can't do that, then you should be willing to question your "better, clearer picture" that isn't as clear as you seem to think.

That's not me trying to shame anybody (nor do I have the time or energy to take on the world of people that are spouting self-made doctrine). But if you feel shame, then, since I am using your words against you, as you pointed out, you should let shame do its proper job and cause you to stop doing what you're doing.

 

[Derf]

You know, [MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION], I have another for-instance I can give you, and it isn't from your words.

I have a book that is pro-creationism (which I agree with), and when I got the book, I was looking forward to reading it. When I started, the first chapter went something like this [my comments in brackets]:

There was a student in a college science class that was presented with the tenets of evolution. He was confused until he returned to his bible and read how God had created the earth and all that is in it in six days. [so far so good, right?? Bear with me while I continue.] He could tell that the order of creation was that God made the grassy plants before He made the fruit-bearing plants, because the Lord Jesus served the bread (made from grains) before the wine (made from fruit) in the Last Supper. [huh???]

There was no discussion about how the author came to the conclusion he had, it was just stated matter-of-factly. Yet when I read in the bible, I don't see anything that supports his view. Neither do I see how it has any bearing on the creation of the world. Worse, because the conclusion was so baseless, I feel it had the potential to do real harm (if anyone one else ever read the book) to the propagation of what I feel to the be the truth about creation and how God did it and how quickly He did it.

I still have that book (after 8 or 10 years), and the title is one that attracts my attention. But every time I pick it up to try to read it again, I disgustedly slam it shut and put it back on the shelf--because there's no way to come to the conclusion this author came to without just taking what he says as the truth. He has lifted up his own conjectures (and I'm fine with conjectures--I propose them all the time) and given them higher weight than the the actual words in the bible. I can't follow that person--either his logic or his conclusions--even if he is "on my side" in the creation/evolution question.

I feel that this is what you are doing. Maybe I'm wrong, but when I tell you I can't see in those scriptures what you're trying to get me to see, it's not because I so badly want to ignore what you're saying. It's because I don't see it. And just repeating it again for me doesn't help me to see it. You have to go back to the logic that brought those scriptures together in your mind and explain it to me. If you don't want to do that, then that's fine. But just spouting the stuff without some evidence of where it came from--a source that is greater than your own inventions--is a necessary part of a conversation, especially one where the original premise is that we want to see what the bible says about a subject (pj's OP).

 

[daqq]

I turn what people say against them when what they say is contradictory. If it doesn't feel good to you, then stop using contradictory arguments.

I'm very interested in what scripture says. And I'm interested in what people think scripture says. And sometimes I learn about how scripture goes together to give a better, clearer picture. But that requires the presenter (that would be you, in this case) to actually present something that has a decent basis--more than just, "if you were as smart or as discerning as I am, you would already know this"!

If you can't do that, then I agree there's no need for this conversation to go further. But if you can't do that, then you should be willing to question your "better, clearer picture" that isn't as clear as you seem to think.

That's not me trying to shame anybody (nor do I have the time or energy to take on the world of people that are spouting self-made doctrine). But if you feel shame, then, since I am using your words against you, as you pointed out, you should let shame do its proper job and cause you to stop doing what you're doing.

Sorry but there is just way too much you are already buried under. If you do not believe the passages already quoted we cannot go any further because they are foundational. There is indeed a mountain of learning after those things but not unless one is first willing to believe the most simple foundational statements of the scripture. There are foundational passages for everything; those passages quoted pertain to this subject matter. Paul in his writings has no idea of the things you apparently believe: that alone should give you pause for what it is you actually believe. Moreover you have really not answered anything out of the posts which I have responded with to you up to this point, except to say that you "don't see it that way" or some other opinionated dismissal of the scripture that has been presented.

#332, #335, #341, #343, #350, #351, #352, #353, #358, #360.

Boiyoiyoiyoiyoing . . . :chuckle:

 

[daqq]

You know, @daqq, I have another for-instance I can give you, and it isn't from your words.

I have a book that is pro-creationism (which I agree with), and when I got the book, I was looking forward to reading it. When I started, the first chapter went something like this [my comments in brackets]:

There was a student in a college science class that was presented with the tenets of evolution. He was confused until he returned to his bible and read how God had created the earth and all that is in it in six days. [so far so good, right?? Bear with me while I continue.] He could tell that the order of creation was that God made the grassy plants before He made the fruit-bearing plants, because the Lord Jesus served the bread (made from grains) before the wine (made from fruit) in the Last Supper. [huh???]

There was no discussion about how the author came to the conclusion he had, it was just stated matter-of-factly. Yet when I read in the bible, I don't see anything that supports his view. Neither do I see how it has any bearing on the creation of the world. Worse, because the conclusion was so baseless, I feel it had the potential to do real harm (if anyone one else ever read the book) to the propagation of what I feel to the be the truth about creation and how God did it and how quickly He did it.

I still have that book (after 8 or 10 years), and the title is one that attracts my attention. But every time I pick it up to try to read it again, I disgustedly slam it shut and put it back on the shelf--because there's no way to come to the conclusion this author came to without just taking what he says as the truth. He has lifted up his own conjectures (and I'm fine with conjectures--I propose them all the time) and given them higher weight than the the actual words in the bible. I can't follow that person--either his logic or his conclusions--even if he is "on my side" in the creation/evolution question.

I feel that this is what you are doing. Maybe I'm wrong, but when I tell you I can't see in those scriptures what you're trying to get me to see, it's not because I so badly want to ignore what you're saying. It's because I don't see it. And just repeating it again for me doesn't help me to see it. You have to go back to the logic that brought those scriptures together in your mind and explain it to me. If you don't want to do that, then that's fine. But just spouting the stuff without some evidence of where it came from--a source that is greater than your own inventions--is a necessary part of a conversation, especially one where the original premise is that we want to see what the bible says about a subject (pj's OP).

Nope, you are again attempting to misrepresent what has been said here. You are denying the scripture which has been posted to you numerous times now. Psa8:3-8 says what it says and clearly speaks of the Son of Man in Gen1:26-28. The author of Hebrews clearly quotes from that passage and applies it to the Messiah. Paul likewise references that passage again in 1Cor15 and then goes on to quote from Gen2:7. You are denying all of the contexts of those passages because they refute what you believe. That is not me coming up with some obscure passage about wine and bread or whatever it is you are now trying to insinuate by your example. Go back and read the passages throughout this whole thread. Moreover I am on-topic but my view which comes from the scripture simply does not agree with your view which really only comes from you separating the rest of scripture and secluding Gen1 so that you can interpret the passage how you like.

 

[daqq]

How about this, @Derf, perhaps you should tell me where the thinking and teaching found in Psa8:3-8 comes from since you cannot see that it speaks of Gen1:26-28? If king David is not speaking of Gen1:26-28 then what is he speaking about? or do you suppose he is just making up some new doctrine because he was a king of Israel? This really is important don't you think? After all it speaks of the Son of Adam or Son of Man, and says that all things were put under his feet by the Most High, and this passage is then used in the N/T for doctrine, and moreover not just any doctrine but the critical doctrines concerning who the Messiah is and was to be when he came. So then, since you seem unwilling to accept that the Psalm speaks of Gen1:26-28, what then is it speaking about? and where can we find that passage or teaching elsewhere in the scripture? Because as it stands now you are simply ignoring and excluding sections of scripture that refute what you believe even though they truly do appear to be speaking about this very topic and subject matter, (whether you can see that fact or not). You have nowhere else that all things were placed under the feet of the Son of Adam or Son of Man: I have Gen1:26-28 from Psa8:3-8. That means in my book that I have an answer from the scripture while you have nothing to offer, unless you can offer up another place where these things were taught in the scripture, before the time of David, (please note also that every king of Israel was commanded to have a Torah scroll and, of course, read it). And in addition to that you have the prophetic vision in Dan7:13-14 where, again, the whole dominion is given to one like a/the Son of Man who is clearly Messiah: but where does that thinking come from? It comes from Gen1:26-28 and Psa8:3-8.

 

[patrick jane]

How about this, @Derf, perhaps you should tell me where the thinking and teaching found in Psa8:3-8 comes from since you cannot see that it speaks of Gen1:26-28? If king David is not speaking of Gen1:26-28 then what is he speaking about?

Do you think that means Christ is a created being, daqq?

 

[daqq]

Do you think that means Christ is a created being, daqq?

Nope, when the Father gives you His Word, His Son, He is not creating His Son but recreating you. But because Testimony is Spirit, if your testimony is the Word, then the Word is indeed a Son of Man, that is, in the sense of mankind, (whether male or female). The author of Gen1&2, (which are at the very least written in the manner of as if "Adam", even if written by Moses), could not have written what he did without the Son of Man. Think about that, (for the Son of Man descends from the heavens, from the Father).

 

[patrick jane]

 

[patrick jane]

 

[patrick jane]

 

[patrick jane]

 

[patrick jane]

And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the Lord shut him in.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Job 37:10 KJV - By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened.
Revelation 20:9-10 KJV - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Face KJV Definition:
1. In a general sense, the surface of a thing, or the side which presents itself to the view of a spectator; as the face of the earth; the face of the waters.
2. A part of the surface of a thing; or the plane surface of a solid. Thus, a cube or die has six faces an octahedron has eight faces.
3. The surface of the fore part of an animals head, particularly of the human head; the visage.
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread. Genesis 3.
Joseph bowed himself with his face to the earth. Genesis 48.
4. Countenance; cast of features; look; air of the face.
We set the best face on it we could.
5. The front of a thing; the forepart; the flat surface that presents itself first to view; as the face of a house. Ezekiel 41.
6. Visible state; appearance.
KJV Dictionary Definition: breadth

BREADTH, n. bredth. The measure or extent of any plain surface from side to side; a geometrical dimension, which,multiplied into the length, constitutes a surface; as,the length of a table is five feet, and the breadth, three; 5x3=15 feet, the whole surface.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/face.html

Isaiah 30 - KJV - And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the Lord bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
27 Behold, the name of the Lord cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
28 And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.
29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the Lord, to the mighty One of Israel.
30 And the Lord shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
31 For through the voice of the Lord shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the Lord shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it.
33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much woo

 

[patrick jane]

[h=3]Firmament: Vaulted Dome of the Earth[/h]

 

[patrick jane]

[h=1]God's Enclosed Flat Earth Investigation - Full Documentary [HD] Parts 1-12[/h]From the video description:
When you read the Bible literally you get an entire different worldview than what you've been taught by the scientific community. Monkey man science, NASA & the Globalists have lied to us about the earth, sun, moon and stars. God's Word the Bible has made it very clear. In this brilliant documentary Mark Sargent goes through each clue into this truth that the world you live on has been a lie. Why would they do this? They lied about evolution. They have lied about the big bang, our universe, the planets and so much more! Your life will never be the same if you wake up to this truth!
https://youtu.be/J6CPrGHpmMs - Documentary - Click link for full screen view

 

[patrick jane]

Psalm 50:1-3 KJV - [FONT=&quot]The mighty God, even the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot], hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.[/FONT]