Bible Study - the Book of Job

[Tambora]

At what time in history did Job live?

Very close to the flood. I was thinking pre-flood for some time, but there is persuasive evidence that it wasn't preflood, as he wasn't 1000 years old. But the mention of extinct sauropods (Behemoth) and the aquatic Leviathon makes me think of the flood. Clearly many animals went extinct that had difficulty adapting after the flood.

That's also a view that I do not feel can totally be written off (even though I personally lean toward the time of the patriarchs).

We are only told that Job lived an additional 140 years after the event of his suffering, but are never told how old he is at the time.
We know he had grown children, but are not told how old he was when had those children.
Noah was 500 years old when he had children. So, it's possible that Job was many years old when he had his.

Fact is, we are not specifically told when Job lived.

So neither view will hinder the MESSAGE of the book.

 

[Tambora]

Well, I do not want to derail this thread from going off topic, my friend.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89246

Much appreciated.

 

[tomlapalm]

This is a passage that I use for the judgment of God. Although this was not intended for Job, it was spoken for Job; and it can stand as a testimony for us today.
Job.18
[5] "Yea, the light of the wicked is put out,
and the flame of his fire does not shine.
[6] The light is dark in his tent,
and his lamp above him is put out.
[7] His strong steps are shortened
and his own schemes throw him down.
[8] For he is cast into a net by his own feet,
and he walks on a pitfall.
[9] A trap seizes him by the heel,
a snare lays hold of him.
[10] A rope is hid for him in the ground,
a trap for him in the path.
[11] Terrors frighten him on every side,
and chase him at his heels.
[12] His strength is hunger-bitten,
and calamity is ready for his stumbling.
[13] By disease his skin is consumed,
the first-born of death consumes his limbs.
[14] He is torn from the tent in which he trusted,
and is brought to the king of terrors.
[15] In his tent dwells that which is none of his;
brimstone is scattered upon his habitation.
[16] His roots dry up beneath,
and his branches wither above.
[17] His memory perishes from the earth,
and he has no name in the street.
[18] He is thrust from light into darkness,
and driven out of the world.
Bilduz spoke these words to Job, but it rings true for many today; and it is a testimony for the great falling away that will occur, which is future tense.

Why did you say "Although this was not intended for Job, it was spoken for Job; "?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Good thread Tamora,

The whole of Job is speaking about events on earth, not in Heaven.

The word heaven in Rev. and used by Jesus in His saying I saw satan fall from heaven, is speaking of satan falling spiritually from power, on earth.

Never are the sons of God in the Bible , a reference to angels.(we could say angelic men, the prophets)

Men are commanded to present themselves before the Throne of God while men live on the earth. (this is where satan accuses before God)



Men suffer first because of their unrighteousness, then after becoming righteous they suffer further to be found worthy to reign with Christ.

LA

 

[Jason0047]

My dear friend. No one is denying that the book of Job as a whole is taking place on the Earth. The opening sequences in Job chapters 1 and 2 where Satan accuses Job takes place up in Heaven. If you disagree with that, then you have to twist Scripture in Job 1-2 and in Revelation 12 in order for your theory to work. The Scriptures are not to be read metaphorically unless there is an indication within the context of the surrounding text or words that tells us to do so.

Also, the sons of God ARE angels because they did not have human parents.
For the parent of an angel is God, my friend. Hence the name "sons of God".

 

[tomlapalm]

I just commented on Satan's reality and Fall .

it has happened.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87934

2Pe 2:4 ¶ For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
It is completed reservation

I look forward to reading more about Job.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

My dear friend. No one is denying that the book of Job as a whole is taking place on the Earth. The opening sequences in Job chapters 1 and 2 where Satan accuses Job takes place up in Heaven. If you disagree with that, then you have to twist Scripture in Job 1-2 and in Revelation 12 in order for your theory to work. The Scriptures are not to be read metaphorically unless there is an indication within the context of the surrounding text or words that tells us to do so.

Also, the sons of God ARE angels because they did not have human parents.
For the parent of an angel is God, my friend.

I do not have to twist scriptures to see the truth.

Where does the Bible say the sons of God did not have human parents??

LA

 

[Jason0047]

Okay, "sons of God" is a name that is used of a being who is born of God. For the inherit meaning of the title is within the name itself. That is why Christians have been referred to as the "sons of God" in the New Testament (1 John 3:1). They are born again by the Spirit of God. Angels do not have parents. Therefore, they are referred to as the "sons of God" because they were directly born or created from God.

Besides, it does not make sense if there were humans or some other types of unknown entities present alongside Satan. For the people in the Old Testament times did not generally present themselves with Satan to plead their case to God.

Scripture says in Revelation 12:10 that the accuser of the saints will be cast down; This is a reference to the dragon (i.e. the devil) being a cast out of Heaven (Revelation 12:7-10).

 

[tomlapalm]

Sons of God is a name that is used of a being who is born of God. The inherit meaning of the title is within the name itself. That is why Christians have been referred to as the sons of God in the New Testament (1 John 3:1). They are born again by the Spirit of God. Angels do not have parents. Therefore, they are referred to as the sons of God because they were directly born or created from God.

Besides, it does not make sense if there were humans or some other types of unknown entities present alongside Satan. For the people in the Old Testament times did not generally present themselves with Satan to plead their case to God.

Scripture says in Revelation 12:10 that the accuser of the saints will be cast down; This is a reference to the dragon (i.e. the devil) being a cast out of Heaven (Revelation 12:7-10).

"sons of god" in Job is referring to the angels or angels fallen with Satan

Rev 12 10 is further comment to the action in verse 4 or before. The dragon cannot try to devourer the child unless He and the third of the star were already cast them down to earth.

These are past events referring to the fall and Christ's death

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Okay, "sons of God" is a name that is used of a being who is born of God. For the inherit meaning of the title is within the name itself. That is why Christians have been referred to as the "sons of God" in the New Testament (1 John 3:1). They are born again by the Spirit of God. Angels do not have parents. Therefore, they are referred to as the "sons of God" because they were directly born or created from God.

The sons of God of the Bible are always men in every instance.

Besides, it does not make sense if there were humans or some other types of unknown entities present alongside Satan. For the people in the Old Testament times did not generally present themselves with Satan to plead their case to God

The whole point of the book of Job, is that the prophets of God had fallen away from God by their sinning and having satan among them, without restriction in his operations of deceiving, and supporting the sinful desires of men through out the world.

The same thing happened before the flood, at Christs first coming, and now before Christs return.

Scripture says in Revelation 12:10 that the accuser of the saints will be cast down; This is a reference to the dragon (i.e. the devil) being a cast out of Heaven (Revelation 12:7-10).

It is a prophecy of the future casting out of satan from among the saints. It is the result of a spiritual war between Jesus and His servants the prophets, and the dragon and his servants the false prophets.

You can read this same thing throughout the Bible in every age.

LA

 

[tomlapalm]

I will add this then quit this subject in favor of the thread

This the Young's Literal Translation. I like it for accuracy. I might be a different meaning, maybe not.

Job 1:6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
Job 1:7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it.

 

[Tambora]

This the Young's Literal Translation. I like it for accuracy. I might be a different meaning, maybe not.

Job 1:6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
Job 1:7 And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Whence comest thou?' And the Adversary answereth Jehovah and saith, `From going to and fro in the land, and from walking up and down on it.

Yes, at times a different translation helps with what is being said.

It does denote that Satan came from the earth/land (where he was going to and fro).
It answers the question of God, "Whence comest thou?", indicating that he is now in a different place than previously (previously on earth/land where he was going to and fro).

 

[Jason0047]

"sons of god" in Job is referring to the angels or angels fallen with Satan

Yes, I agree. The "sons of God" are angels. Whether they be fallen angels or good angels is not entirely made clear by the text.

However, your theological viewpoint on whether or not Satan is able to approach God to accuse the saints in Heaven or not will of course effect your interpretation on the affiliation of these angels in the opening chapters of Job 1-2.

 

[tomlapalm]

I agree.

let's defer to Tambora for more on Job

 

[COLA76]

At what time in history did Job live?

Since the bible does not specifically tell us, only clues can be compiled to speculate as to the timeline.
And there is much to speculate on.

My own personal preference is that Job lived sometime just prior to, or during, the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

There is no tabernacle/temple mentioned, but there are altars built.
Until the tabernacle was built (in the time of Moses), altars for sacrifice were built wherever you happen to be.

Another clue is the age Job lived to be.
Even though we are not given the exact amount of years Job lived, we know that he was already old enough to have grown children before the events took place. And we are told that after all the events of the book of Job take place, Job continues to live an additional 140 years.

Job 42 KJV
(16) After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.
​

The age of Job gives an indication of a time in which men still lived to be rather old in age that is comparable to the ages during the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

• Abraham lived to be 175 years old.

• Isaac lived to be 180 years old.

• Jacob lived to be 147 years old.

IF Job was contemporary to the time of Abraham (or prior), then he most probably was alive before Noah died.
Abraham lived for 175 years and was 58 years old when Noah died.

What about the possibility that Job never existed at all? The Book of Job was almost certainly written during or after after the Babylonian captivity. There is a Babylonian "Job" story that has striking similarities to the Hebrew version, but seems to be older. I think Job makes much more sense when viewed as a story designed to make a point rather than a historical account.

 

[Tambora]

What about the possibility that Job never existed at all?

There are some that view the story of Job as simply a parable story, and that he was not historical figure.

However, I certainly lean toward the view that he was a historical figure.

Ezekiel 14 KJV
(14) Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
(15) If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
(16) Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
(17) Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
(18) Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
(19) Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
(20) Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
​

I find it hard to accept that if Job was just a make-believe person, that he would be listed with the other two that were certainly historical figures.

The Book of Job was almost certainly written during or after after the Babylonian captivity. There is a Babylonian "Job" story that has striking similarities to the Hebrew version, but seems to be older. I think Job makes much more sense when viewed as a story designed to make a point rather than a historical account.

You are welcome to post a link to this Babylonian Job story that you mention.
That way folks can read it at their leisure if interested.

But since this is a "bible" study, this thread will stick to the biblical story.

 

[Tambora]

I agree.

let's defer to Tambora for more on Job

I plan on posting chapter 3 and 4 tonight.

Thanks for your patience.
I just don't want to go too quickly, but have time to reflect on each chapter before presenting more.

 

[Jason0047]

I plan on posting chapter 3 and 4 tonight.

Thanks for your patience.
I just don't want to go too quickly, but have time to reflect on each chapter before presenting more.

Dear T:

You might like this audio reading of the entire book of Job.
I found it to be quite entertaining.

Job Audio Reading - Word of Promise

 

[steko]

Yes, I agree. The "sons of God" are angels. Whether they be fallen angels or good angels is not entirely made clear by the text.

However, your theological viewpoint on whether or not Satan is able to approach God to accuse the saints in Heaven or not will of course effect your interpretation on the affiliation of these angels in the opening chapters of Job 1-2.

I believe that 'the Sons of GOD' in Job 1 are men which are obedient to GOD and this event takes place on the earth, when these faithful men came to offer before GOD. Nowhere does it say this event takes place in heaven, nor does it say that these were angelic beings.
I also believe that the term 'Sons of GOD' is an honorable term in scripture, never to be used to describe fallen angels who are opposed to the will of GOD.

 

[Jason0047]

There are some that view the story of Job as simply a parable story, and that he was not historical figure.

However, I certainly lean toward the view that he was a historical figure.

Ezekiel 14 KJV
(14) Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
(15) If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
(16) Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
(17) Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
(18) Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
(19) Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
(20) Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
​

I find it hard to accept that if Job was just a make-believe person, that he would be listed with the other two that were certainly historical figures.

You are welcome to post a link to this Babylonian Job story that you mention.
That way folks can read it at their leisure if interested.

But since this is a "bible" study, this thread will stick to the biblical story.

Dear T:

Great passage that supports the truth of God's Word! Thank you.

Although the Bible does tell us that it uses similitudes (i.e. figures of speech) (Hosea 12:10 KJV), every story and person mentioned in the Bible is literally true and 100% accurate. Every letter, word, and number is carefully placed in the Bible by deliberate design from God. For the Scriptures predict the future in advance and it is a living and breathing book that can change the hearts of men.

Not to get ahead of our study, but the truth of the existence of a real fire breathing dragon (i.e. the Leviathan) as mentioned in Job 41, it is more real than people would like to think.

The dracorex fossil discovery was discovered in 2004 and looks very similar to the dragons of myth and legend. And the existence of the bombardier beetle shows us that it is possible for a creature to release super heated chemicals from it's body.

I will try and provide some good videos on the existence of dragons when you get to Job chapter 41.