Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

Arial

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OUR predestination occured AFTER our fall as a response to the fall even though it was told to all that predestination to hell was inevitable if any sinned the unforgivable sin...
Good post and awesome thought processes. Although in that sentence, if it were me saying it ;) instead of predestined I would simply say destined for hell. It is the punishment for sin, physical death and spiritual death, that is determined by God, and predetermined by necessity because of His character of perfection (perfect holiness) which includes perfect justice.
Predestination created no sin whatsoever!!! It only warned of, predicted, the inevitable RESULT OF SIN as either salvation for those who had put their faith in HIM before they sinned or damnation for those who sinned the unforgivable sin of rejecting HIM as a liar and false god driven by a psychotic megalomania, and so never put their faith in HIM, Jn 3:18.
Yes and the warning was given to Adam and Eve. Disobey and you will die. But I don't think it is necessary to put our faith in Him before we sin in order to be saved. (If I understand what you say correctly). We sin unintentionally and intentionally way before we even know of the concept of sin. It is as inevitable that we will sin as it is that we will breathe. We are surrounded by sin and enticements to sin. It is coming to faith in Christ and the substitutionary work He did on the cross, that wipes the penalty for our sins away, freeing us of that condemning burden. And not because we then become perfectly righteous as Jesus was. We are not going to achieve perfection here. But He transforms us more and more into His image---the image we were created to bear. And in the meantime, while we wait for the fulness, His perfect righteousness is credited to our account.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
We know, because He tells us, that there is no evil in Him.
HE is light and no dark is in HIM, ie, there is no way at all that HE can be responsible for the sins of anyone or for their choosing sin such as being created, born or conceived, into someone else's sinfulness. The mind boggles at this blasphemy, sigh.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Neither do I. Neither do Calvinists. I don't know on what basis you think they do.

How so? See right here you show you do not understand Calvinism.

Election unto salvation does not come in a vacuum. No one is saved by osmosis. If a person believes the gospel when they hear it, it is because they are elected to salvation, according to Reformed theology. It is believing the gospel---the person and work of Jesus unto salvation--- that saves. Not election in and of itself. You misunderstand this theology from top to bottom. And if a person is placed in the Vine through this faith, they begin to bear the fruit (morals etc) of that Vine. If they are not bearing any fruit, they are not in the Vine.

Elect simply means chosen and the church is made up of the chosen. The Bible does not say the church is chosen and made up of people who are not chosen. And before you get stuck on we are forced into heaven or hell by an almighty God----remember that He said He turns no one away who comes to Him. He isn't playing sadistic games as Poly suggested in her OP.

I answered it before, and I have answered it again.
I don't see where you answered what do you believe? I believe that you did answer I just want to make it clear here because I have missed where you answered, so here I number the sentences repeated again, tell me which one is wrong.

1)
If you are elect, there is nothing you can do to not be in heaven when you die.
2)
If you are not elect, there is nothing you can do to not be in hell when you die.

And then we can talk.
 

JudgeRightly

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Unsubstantiated declaration.

It was my opinion. Nothing more nothing less.

Is 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old, for I am God and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring tge the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure. Calling a bird of prey form the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country, indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

Sorry, but that doesn't say that God predetermined everything.

Manipulating? Really? See above scripture. It says He DOES it.

Yes, God can manipulate His enemies into accomplishing things He wants to accomplish. The best example of this is the Cross.

That is exactly what Polly and GD and M and Clete did to Beloved 57 and by extension all who do not believe as you and they do. However I did not call into question Polly's faith. I called into question her remark to B57, since she IS a Christian (as far as I know). I did not even do it because it challenged my theology. Pay attention before you go all accusatory.

Many people say they used to be Calvinist and many people say they understand it completely, then say things that show clearly (to one who does understand it, because I asked the question "what if" and wasn't afraid to look and look deeply) that they do not understand it at all.

Or, they believed something other than what you believe.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but Calvinists are not a monolithic group...

Regardless, There are people who have studied what Calvin himself said, and who have studied what Calvinists believe, and they're saying the same things we're saying.

Rather they saw God presented in a way they were not willing to accept if it were true, and so they didn't.

Because such a God does not fall in line with the God of scripture.

You keep forgetting that part.

It's not just a rejection of Calvinism because we don't like it, Arial. It's a rejection of it because it does not fall in line with the kind of God that scripture describes.

They returned to a God which they basically made in a image more to their liking and more controllable.

False.

Nevertheless, it is not necessary to see or understand it----God remembers that we are made of dust.

Completely irrelevant.

Where does Christ tell us to judge PEOPLE?

John 7:24
Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”

He tells us to judge teaching.

Paul says:

Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?
1 Corinthians 6:2-5

And you are judging other's beliefs strictly according to and by your own,

Wrong. I judge them according to what the Bible says.

And you're judging me for judging, you hypocrite.

and condemning them to hell if they don't line up with yours.

If it doesn't line up with scripture. My personal beliefs have nothing to do with it.

And those beliefs of yours which you judge and condemn by are most of the time in no way connected to salvation. Such as the beliefs of those who agree with the sovereignty of God in salvation and those who do not agree with your MAD doctrine.

:yawn:

Do you know that BTK confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus?

Did you forget what was said?


P.S. Here's an example of someone who professes a belief in the person and work of Jesus...

iu


Dennis Rader: The serial killer known as BTK (Bind Torture Kill) who not only brutally murdered and tortured people but raped and eleven year old girl in 1974. He was also president of the church council of Christ Lutheran Church in Park City Kansas. A church, by the way, that believes God predestined everything before time began, just the way you and B57 do.

Emphasis on the word professed.


And are you able to look into his heart and see what He believed?

You seem to be able to.

His repeated unrepentant actions declare that he was never joined to Christ----(continued below)

Because you say so? Because He would probably say that He was joined to Christ, but that Christ had him do those things anyways.

or what position he held in what church.

I've never heard of the guy before, but I doubt that Clete was lying regarding the position he had in his church...

Not to mention a great many Lutheran churches as well as "Calvinist" churches, are as watered down and as unconcerned about doctrine as most other churches, including Methodist, many Baptist and almost 100% of non-denominational churches. That is why neither shepherd or sheep recognize a wolf, even when he doesn't bother to wear his sheep's clothing.

Yes, we're aware that the church is lactose intolerant, let alone unable to handle the milk.

Many say they are saved because of a choice they made. How is that not something they did. If they didn't make that choice, then according to them, the person and work would have done nothing for them.

John Piper answers this question here:


Yes, He set that choice before them. The choice was to follow the covenant conditions or to not follow the covenant conditions. If they followed them, He would bless them in every aspect of their life. Food, clothing, families, rain, life etc. If they didn't keep those conditions, He would curse them with all the curses He promised. They didn't and He did.

The point is that they had "A CHOICE."

Your paradigm doesn't even allow them that much.

That is not the same thing as a person choosing to decide to believe in the person and work of Jesus of their own volition. (Though it is probably always going to look like that is what we did from our viewpoint. AND IT DOESN'T AFFECT SALVATION IF WE ARE UNABLE TO SEE IT ANY OTHER WAY!!) They did choose, but it was the work of God in them that brought them to that faith.

I am not questioning them.

Work of God that they had no ability to say otherwise in?
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
And He did not tell us and we do not know, because either we do not need to, or...
But HE told us of the Divine messiah, and that the Messiah would suffer and die and HIS people got it not at all - not because it was beyond their ability but because it did not conform to what they saw through their narrow knothole. The same thing is happening again as the prophecies of Daniel about a new revelation in the end times conform to the Revelation to John that a new little bible would be given that had to be eaten and digested for a full understanding, ie studied in detail, was also part of the end times revelation.

Everyone looks at the world through their own knothole.
We don’t see things as they are. We see them as we are.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Good post and awesome thought processes. Although in that sentence, if it were me saying it ;)
Thank you...
instead of predestined I would simply say destined for hell.
...I use the word predestined to refer to the fact that I believe that we were so destined before, pre, the existence of the physical universe, ie, the foundation of the world. If someone was destined to hell after they sinned but before the foundation of the world, then to speak of their being so destined is adequately described as a predestination...
 

Arial

Active member
If that is the case, you ought to be able to refute them easily.
I can, I have, I do.
Groups of people are predestined, individuals are not, and even groups can repent, in which case, God reacts to that repentance as appropriate
Last I heard groups of people consisted of individuals.
Any individual person involved in Christ's death could have chosen not to be, including anyone on the Jewish council, Pontius Pilot or any guard, centurion or any other specific individual.
But they didn't. And not only that, but it came about exactly as God declared it would, many times over, long before it ever happened. I wonder why?
Had such occurred, God would have reacted in whatever manner was needed in order to secure His ultimate goal. Indeed, if the entire nation of Israel had seen the Light and repented and accepted Jesus as the Christ that He was, even then God could have still accomplished His goal without even needing a crucifix to do it. God could have had the High Priest perform the blood sacrifice on the alter, if need be. The point being that God predicted and even planned for but did not predestine the specifics, or at least not all of them, nor was it necessary for Him to do so in order to accomplish His goal.
God doesn't adjust His plans to fit our actions, contrary to what you believe. They didn't see the light, and they wouldn't see the light. Do you think that surprised God? Do you thing He had to come up with a plan B? He did predestine the specifics. He tells us what they were centuries before they occurred.
According to your doctrine, Poly knows only and precisely what she was predestined to know by God before Poly ever existed.
Well, that is your "complete and in depth study" of Reformed theology for you. We know what God tells us, or should, are required to learn it as children of God. That is called our responsibility. He gave us the information. He gave us the spiritual understanding, He gave us the mind--all the tools we need to hear and listen and learn and grow. It is our responsibility to obey.
You believe that Poly has the ability to act outside of what God predestined?
More evidence that you do not know what you think you know. You are still operating on the most basic misunderstanding of Reformed theology ----that it teaches that we are robots or puppets.
There is one thing I know for certain. I know your doctrine better than you do. I've studied it in considerable depth for decades. I can quote original sources if you doubt that I am depicting Calvinist doctrine accurately. I have yet to have even one single Calvinist deny that they believe these things, even when I went looking for one who would!
Wow. I feel sorry for you and you hubris. It just goes to show that either people will lie at the drop of a hat in order to prop up their obvious lack of understanding of a thing, or there is, as we all know, a vast difference in reading and studying and that of comprehension.
That's stupidity but it is also beside the point. Let's grant, for the sake of argument, that you're right and that I've "set myself up as judge, rather than Christ". We'll ignore the fact that the bible tells us to judge with righteous judgment and we'll ignore the fact that the bible teaches that we will judge the angels and we'll grant, again for the sake of argument, that not only have I set myself up as judge but that doing so is an "atrocious sin".

Do you believe then that I or Poly could have done otherwise or don't you actually believe that God predestined my every thought, word and deed before time began?

Prediction: Ariel will NOT answer that question directly.
What does the Bible say is righteous judgement? We aren't judging the angels yet. Setting yourself as a judge over someone's salvation, as Polly, and then you and others, were doing, was the subject. And as I told your alias, you all are doing so basing it on whether it agrees with what you believe or not. Not on anything to actually do with the content of the faith that saves. All I did, that started this fussy fuss fuss, is say to poke at someone's faith and confidence like that was atrocious---suggesting that maybe God was only playing some sadistic game with B57. And a Christian should know that, as that information is given to us in the scriptures. And in spite of the fact that all the self appointed judges insist that Jesus told us to judge, He also said "Judge not, lest you be judged." Now what do you suppose is the difference in the two kinds of judging? Or do you think one of those things He said is a lie?

I do not believe that you (notice you put yourself first) or Polly had no choice to do otherwise, and I do not, and of all the Calvinists I have known or read, and the Bible also, none would say that God predestines yours, Polly's or anyones every thought, word and deed. Again you are reverting to the most basic, uninformed view of Reformed theology. That we believe God made us puppets and robots. That is an incorrect view.
That isn't the point, Ariel! The point is that you CANNOT tell! That man's own family had no idea that he was BTK! Do you think that Christ Lutheran Church in Park City Kansas is in the habit of putting people on their elder board who they have reason to believe are unbelievers (much less sociopathic serial killers)? There is zero doubt that Dennis Rader has made multiple public professions of faith in Christ, been baptized, taught Sunday School classes, quoted bible verses and told people that "God giveth and God taketh away!"
Another Lutheran church in Wichita, KS , (of which Park City is a suburb) one in fact that called themselve Reformed Lutheran, also had George Tiller, king of early and late term abortions, serving in their church. They certainly knew who he was, and I think by Reformed they meant reformed from the reformation. But I digress. It could be that no one knew that Radar was a serial killer, but in order for him to be that evil, there had to be something off with Christianity in him that could be seen. "By their fruit you will know them." Is there zero doubt that he made public profession of faith in Christ? Or just zero doubt in your mind. But what he did or did not profess is beside the point. A person can say anything, and as you are infamous for: saying it doesn't make it so. Jesus and Paul and Peter and John did not tell us to watch for wolves in sheep's clothing, and false teachers coming into our midst because we couldn't do that. He told us because we could. And the only way we can discern such is if we are grounded in the doctrines of Christianity in the scriptures.
In short, Rader, in so far as his faith is concerned, would have looked just exactly the same as most any Christian you've ever met and while hindsight is 20/20 and its easy now to know he was a wolf in sheep's clothing, you could not have told that prior to February 25, 2005 when he was arrested for having murdered at least ten people.
You don't know what Radar looked like to anyone. Most likely there were some that did know something was not genuine or was creepy about him. Though to not suspect him of being a serial killer is likely and irrelevant because it is not the point. And you can't speak for me by speaking about yourself. I have spotted many wolves and false teachers who have never been arrested.
Did God predestine Dennis Rader to rape that eleven year old girl and hang her from a plumbing pipe in her basement?
Nope. That is all on BTK. Still I see, in spite of your decades of studying Reformed theology, you are prone to misstate it and in most grotesque ways.
 
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ttruscott

Well-known member
We sin unintentionally and intentionally way before we even know of the concept of sin. It is as inevitable that we will sin as it is that we will breathe.
It is this way because only sinners are born into mankind, some as the sinful but good (elect) seed, the sinful people of the kingdom, (Matt 13:36:39) the sheep of Christ by faith who have gone astray into sin but are then returned to Him: 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.....If we were created in sin, ie, as gone astray and outside of Christ, how could we be said to return to Him when converted to HiM?
 

Arial

Active member
Thank you...

...I use the word predestined to refer to the fact that I believe that we were so destined before, pre, the existence of the physical universe, ie, the foundation of the world. If someone was destined to hell after they sinned but before the foundation of the world, then to speak of their being so destined is adequately described as a predestination...
Agreed.
 

JudgeRightly

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I do not know what B57 believes in that regard. But it is not what Reformed theology teaches.

This is faulty thinking.

As I said above, Calvinism isn't a monolithic group.

That applies to you as well. Just because YOU don't hold to a particular belief of Calvinism doesn't mean it isn't Calvinism.

I can assure you, that "ANYTHING a person believes is predetermined by God before the foundation of the earth" is in fact, Calvinism, or at the very least, what Calvin taught.

A person is born a non believer in the sense that we are all born with the propensity to sin (and will sin). And are at enmity with God. Reformed teaches that a person will remain an unbeliever at every point in his life unless God quickens him giving him a new heart, one that now desires God and leans on Christ.

Which was all predetermined before the foundation of the world. According to Calvin.

This type of remark shows up often in your posts, you relying on Clete and praising him. Are you both the same person?

Nope. Not the same person.

And we apparently missed each other at Bob's memorial service. Imagine that.

The one being freed by alias to be the more brutal of the two?

You have quite the imagination.

If a person is smart enough, wise enough, humble enough, good enough, to make a choice to believe and trust in Jesus, that came from them. They became the deciding factor in their salvation. No matter what gorgeous and humble looking clothes you clothe it in.

See the desiringgod.org link I shared above.

You are the one saying what one believes on this subject determines whether a person is saved or not. Not me. I have said the opposite.

I've made no such claim.

I HAVE, however, quoted scripture, Romans 10:9.

It would be presumptuous to say such as your second sentence if there was no support for it in scripture. If there is such support (whether rightly interpreted or not) in scripture, it is simply telling the truth.

If there is such support, but it's due to a wrong interpretation, then it's not telling the truth.

Eph 1:5 Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."

Yup. That's a Calvinist proof-text alright.

Guess what. "Predestined... us... into the adoption..."

Who is "us."

The body of Christ. "Us in Him."

Not "us not in Him."

It's not saying that we were put into Him before the foundation of the world. It's saying that those who are in Him will be adopted BY Him. It has absolutely nothing to do with God choosing specific individuals to be "in Him."
 

JudgeRightly

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The Bible does say that the Son created all things and in Him all things hold together.

What it says is this:

Colossians 1:16-18
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

If God relaxed His governance over the universe for a split split split second, I suspect this world and everything in it would disappear.

Let me ask you this:

If a builder builds a fence, but has to hold it up constantly with his own two hands, is that the sign of a good fence? or a terrible builder?

On the other hand, if a builder builds a fence, and it stands on its own, without any further input or support from the builder, is that a terrible fence? or is that a sign of a good builder?

Which do you think God is? A good builder, or a terrible builder?

Do you think that God built a good creation or a terrible creation?
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
The fall happened before the foundation of the world... The serpent arrived in the garden already evil with evil intent....
Adam ate = the fall
How's this "before the foundation of the world"?
 

JudgeRightly

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I can, I have, I do.

Then do so, in this thread.

Last I heard groups of people consisted of individuals.

Oh dear, whatever shall we do, Arial made a comment that she thinks cinches the debate... that we already are aware of... that doesn't affect our position at all... hmmm, whatever shall we do!

Arial, sarcasm aside, we know that groups are made up of individuals. That doesn't change the fact that God predestines groups, just like an airline predestines a plane full of people to go from point A to point B.

But they didn't. And not only that, but it came about exactly as God declared it would, many times over, long before it ever happened. I wonder why?

Try not to get confused.

You're assuming the conclusion that God predestined them to do exactly what they did, then declaring, "see, everything happened as God declared it would!"

The problem is that you're conflating "something that has already occurred" with "how God wanted it to be."

God doesn't adjust His plans to fit our actions, contrary to what you believe.

He doesn't?

At least twice in scripture, God wanted to destroy Israel, but for the sake of at least two prophets on two different occasions, He spared them His wrath.

They didn't see the light, and they wouldn't see the light. Do you think that surprised God? Do you thing He had to come up with a plan B? He did predestine the specifics. He tells us what they were centuries before they occurred.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Well, that is your "complete and in depth study" of Reformed theology for you.

What Clete said was 100% consistent with what you have stated you believe, Arial. No "in depth study" needed.

It's the logical conclusion of what you believe.

We know what God tells us, or should, are required to learn it as children of God. That is called our responsibility. He gave us the information. He gave us the spiritual understanding, He gave us the mind--all the tools we need to hear and listen and learn and grow. It is our responsibility to obey.

And if we do or don't, that's all predetermined by God, according to your doctrine.

More evidence that you do not know what you think you know. You are still operating on the most basic misunderstanding of Reformed theology ----that it teaches that we are robots or puppets.

IT'S FAR WORSE THAN THAT, ARIAL! It teaches that we're DIRT! We're just CLAY in the Potter's hands, according to Reformed theology!

At least with robots or puppets, we look humanoid!

Wow. I feel sorry for you and you hubris. It just goes to show that either people will lie at the drop of a hat in order to prop up their obvious lack of understanding of a thing, or there is, as we all know, a vast difference in reading and studying and that of comprehension.

What does the Bible say is righteous judgement? We aren't judging the angels yet.

Again, Paul says if we can't judge the small matters now, how are we to judge the world, the angels, when the time comes.

Setting yourself as a judge over someone's salvation, as Polly, and then you and others, were doing, was the subject. And as I told your alias, you all are doing so basing it on whether it agrees with what you believe or not. Not on anything to actually do with the content of the faith that saves. All I did, that started this fussy fuss fuss, is say to poke at someone's faith and confidence like that was atrocious---suggesting that maybe God was only playing some sadistic game with B57. And a Christian should know that, as that information is given to us in the scriptures. And in spite of the fact that all the self appointed judges insist that Jesus told us to judge, He also said "Judge not, lest you be judged."

That's Hillary Clinton's favorite verse. But it leaves out something important.

What the Bible ACTUALLY says is this:

Matthew 7:1-5
7 “Judge not, that you be not judged.For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye?Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Jesus was talking to HYPOCRITES in that passage. He wasn't saying "no one should ever judge." He was telling Hypocrites to not judge, because judging those who judge is hypocrisy.

Now what do you suppose is the difference in the two kinds of judging? Or do you think one of those things He said is a lie?

One is hypocrisy, as stated. The other is good.

I do not believe that you (notice you put yourself first) or Polly had no choice to do otherwise, and I do not, and of all the Calvinists I have known or read, and the Bible also, none would say that God predestines yours, Polly's or anyones every thought, word and deed. Again you are reverting to the most basic, uninformed view of Reformed theology. That we believe God made us puppets and robots. That is an incorrect view.

Supra, re: clay, dirt.

Another Lutheran church in Wichita, KS , (of which Park City is a suburb) one in fact that called themselve Reformed Lutheran, also had George Tiller, king of early and late term abortions, serving in their church. They certainly knew who he was, and I think by Reformed they meant reformed from the reformation. But I digress. It could be that no one knew that Radar was a serial killer, but in order for him to be that evil, there had to be something off with Christianity in him that could be seen. "By their fruit you will know them." Is there zero doubt that he made public profession of faith in Christ? Or just zero doubt in your mind. But what he did or did not profess is beside the point. A person can say anything, and as you are infamous for: saying it doesn't make it so. Jesus and Paul and Peter and John did not tell us to watch for wolves in sheep's clothing, and false teachers coming into our midst because we couldn't do that. He told us because we could. And the only way we can discern such is if we are grounded in the doctrines of Christianity in the scriptures.

You don't know what Rader looked like to anyone. Most likely there were some that did know something was not genuine or was creepy about him. Though to not suspect him of being a serial killer is likely and irrelevant because it is not the point. And you can't speak for me by speaking about yourself. I have spotted many wolves and false teachers who have never been arrested.

Nope. That is all on BTK. Still I see, in spite of your decades of studying Reformed theology, you are prone to misstate it and in most grotesque ways.
 

Arial

Active member
Then do so, in this thread.
I have, I can't help it if you have an inability to grasp what I am saying.

Try not to get confused.

The problem is that you're conflating "something that has already occurred" with "how God wanted it to be."
Try not to get confused. God told us how it would be long before it happened. (The crucifixion and how and by whom is the subject there.)
He doesn't?

At least twice in scripture, God wanted to destroy Israel, but for the sake of at least two prophets on two different occasions, He spared them His wrath.
Well if we can find something in two places that seem to contradict what is said in countless other places, lets just go with that. No need, since we like the two better than the countless as it fits our chosen doctrine; no need to try and find out why what is being said in the two seems to contradict. Even though we know that there can be no contradictions in God's work.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Chorus.
Oh dear, whatever shall we do, Arial made a comment that she thinks cinches the debate... that we already are aware of... that doesn't affect our position at all... hmmm, whatever shall we do!
And the fact that God sometimes predestines groups of people made up of individuals does not conclude that He only predestines groups of people. Think of all the examples we have of individuals were not chosen within those groups of people while others were chosen.
What Clete said was 100% consistent with what you have stated you believe, Arial. No "in depth study" needed.

It's the logical conclusion of what you believe.
Of course you agree with Clete. You are practically the same person. And the conclusion you and your alias reached comes from not being able to think and reason clearly. You are surface thinkers and think that is all there is. Whatever you think in other words has to be right. It is certainly not consistent with what I said or I wouldn't be disagreeing with it. Big duh.
And if we do or don't, that's all predetermined by God, according to your doctrine.
You seem to think that Reformed theology teaches that we are not humans, as God created us, with a mind and ability to make choices for which we are responsible. It doesn't. It does not even teach that man does not have a will and freely makes choices. It simply says the will is not free since Adam fell. It is bound by sin, and will not (not cannot ,but will not) choose God AS God, as Lord over them. I didn't make this up. Scripture is that messenger.
IT'S FAR WORSE THAN THAT, ARIAL! It teaches that we're DIRT! We're just CLAY in the Potter's hands, according to Reformed theology!
What it actually teaches is that man is the crowning glory of His creation.
Adam was made out of dirt. Eve out of bone.
My saying that God remembers we are made of dust was a direct quote from a Psalm of David.
Reformed theology did come up with us being clay in the Potter's hands. It is in the Bible. In addition to that, it is a metaphor for man being a creature, created by God, and He can do and does do as He pleases (keep in mind He is Holy and perfect and all His ways are perfect, unlike His creatures) with what is His.
 

Arial

Active member
It is this way because only sinners are born into mankind, some as the sinful but good (elect) seed, the sinful people of the kingdom, (Matt 13:36:39) the sheep of Christ by faith who have gone astray into sin but are then returned to Him: 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.....If we were created in sin, ie, as gone astray and outside of Christ, how could we be said to return to Him when converted to HiM?
I think it is just a way of saying it because they are described as going astray. If they have gone astray by turning to Christ they are no long astray. A few translations actually say turn to Christ rather than return to. But also it could be relating to our original (Adam and Eve) creation where they were in the very presence of God, still fully reflecting Him (image and likeness), and returning to that in Christ, who is God as Redeemer.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Banned
Of course I am glad. Even more grateful to know that even though I will never reach perfection this side of heaven or the restoration of all things, that it is the righteousness of Christ, who died and rose again for me, through which God views me. I still live in this fallen world. Am still a fallen person. I will slip up sometimes, recognize my sin and repent of the way that I have brought shame on the name of God. It is for this that the Holy Spirit has sealed (we bear the seal of the King, we are His) the believer in His righteousness. He paid the penalty for those sins. They do not condemn me anymore.
It seems you are glad about something besides not being a sinner.
You can "reach perfection" on this side of heaven, and I don't mean 20-20 vision and good knees.
I mean sinless.
 
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