BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 8 thru 10)

[bling]

Patman, thank you for a quick response.

I knew Ezekiel would get a rise out of you, I do think he is a real interest fellow. I said before I like your work except for the use of secular history, it is not always correct. I can give examples of the secular history of events showing the King and his friends doing only good stuff and not mentioning the loses. Most of the time it does not come right out and disagree with scripture, it just leaves things out.

Patman said: I do not like the implications of this question at all, Bling. I have answered your questions as fully and completely, and on the same exact thought process every time. If you are confusing me with someone else you are debating, perhaps you should apologize to us both, and go back and re-read what I wrote to you.

I am sorry I offended you I thought I saw some change as a result of what Knight had said more then anything I said. I have changed some and I hope you have grown.

Patman said:
Bling, I must say that everything you say in here is utterly untrue. Comparing Eve to Ezekiel is a long stretch. And to say Ezekiel goofed up the message, or twisted it so Nebuchadnezzar would be happy is simply incorrect if you hold to the word of the Bible.

Q1. Are you not saying that good people miss communicated (embellished): either Adam to Eve or Eve to the serpent, and this embellishment was recorded in scripture without any explanation showing that this was definitely a miss communication?
Q2. Do we know positively that Eve and/or Adam did not get further instruction?

With Ezekiel we are left with only a few options, if you know more help me:
1. God did not communicate the option of Him changing His mind and maybe not destroying Tyre for some reason to Ezekiel and Ezekiel communicated everything God did communicate to him and that is recorded.
2. God did communicate at this time or prior that he may or may not destroy any place contingent on the nations involved, with Tyre be included and Ezekiel communicated only part of the information at this time, leaving out the exceptions and this is recorded and no later specific Biblical explanations are given.
3. God communicates a totally correct message to Ezekiel and Ezekiel communicated that same message to Nebuchadnezzar and we are missing interpreting the message and/or the results. (this is Lee’s stand)
4. God communicated the correct message and Ezekiel embellished the message thinking it referred to Nebuchadnezzar, and thus miss communicated to Neb., this was recorded, and no explanation is give later.

Option 4 is the same as Adam embellishing to Eve, if that happened.

Patman said: I feel the line of questioning is leading us no where when I do not know what your real point is. You state we are debating about the future knowledge of God, but I feel as if it is more a way of you preaching your views on the Garden.
Patman asked: So, Question 1. Please summarize your overall point. Once I get what you are trying to prove we can take the small stuff into account.

1. God starts with the garden; there is no going back from here to previous people.
2. The Garden will and has come up when others discuss foreknowledge.
3. The Garden is either an example of the first of God’s many changes in His plan or it is an example of the first step in a wonderful exquisite plan.
4. It is either the first failure or the first step of God’s very successful plan.
5. It is an example of God knowing and understanding His purpose and man’s ability (with or without foreknowledge) or God not understanding.
6. It is a one of a kind place and people.

One of the biggest hurdles I see to considering the idea, that God could know at least some of our future, is that God would knowingly be allowing us to sin without stopping us.
I know Patman you have a hard time with the idea of God even allowing Satan to be around, so allowing sin is way beyond that, let alone good people actually benefiting from Satan and sin is beyond that.
I have tried to show God does allow Satan to be around in the Garden. God did understand man enough to realize he would sin. That there could be some benefit to Satan and sin, if it helped fulfill some greater objective, I then tried to show what that objective could be and what it is not. All of this comes out in the Garden, but it is also through out scripture.
I also know this is not the only hurdle and the rest might change some of my thinking, but we maybe stuck on the first hurdle.
If I sound like I am preaching I am sorry. I really try to lessen and only ask questions, when I am in a true dialect with someone studying scripture. The greatest teacher I ever had told me nothing, gave me only options with all the assumptions and never told me what he thought was the most likely option. A 30 minute lesson would result in 12 hours of discussion with other students. He was really good one on one. This format is difficult for me, I have to ask a bunch of questions and wait to long for answers, I make assumptions and wander from the path we should be following.

Patman asked:
As you said, there are many forms of love, why are we limiting God to only one? Why is that so important to you?

The love I am talking about is the one that takes all of you: Luke 10 27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"
If you love God like that then you don’t have anything left to do anything that does not include that love which I have been calling agape love. All other types of love will have to take a back seat and be incorporated in this love. To show what this love is like we have the parable of The Good Samaritan. If you are doing this you have no time, strength, emotion, intellect or motivation to be doing anything else. You will do things that only include loving God.
What I am suggesting is this objective is so great that all things (this entire world) will be set up so good people can do that and that alone.
Romans 8: 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose.

Question 2. Do you think God planned for Adam, the very man himself, to sin?

If you could buy into the objective, then you might buy into God having to allow Adam to sin, because there is no way for Adam to ever develop Godly love needing free will without sinning. Free will, with true alternatives to try other things, means sin will occur for adult man on earth.

Question 3. If God thinks that the situation we are in now is better than it would be in the Garden, do you have scripture that states this clam?

We just have to look at the Garden and think about it. Roman 8: 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Most of Romans 6&7.

The whole idea of grace and works. For Adam and Eve to remain in an eternal close relationship with God they had to depend on their obedience. Out side the Garden all adult people are dependent on God’s grace. Depending on God to forgive sin is through out scripture and the only way to go.

Question 4. If God foresaw Adam's fall before he created Adam, and knew everything there was to know about Adam and the very exact flaw that was in him, and created that flaw regardless, would God not have initiated the sin by Adam's design?

1 Cor. 2: 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

I think we agree that God had the cross in His (possible) plans, from the beginning of time. Now either, He thought He would or He thought He might have to implement this plan. It is either a very real strong possibility or something He realized was going to have to be implemented.
The flaw you talk about is the free will required for Godly type love, you can not remove the flaw without voiding man’s objective. The objective is not to keep from ever sinning one time, that is not possible for any adult human and God could realize that with or without foreknowledge. It still is not God’s fault man sinned because it was man who sinned and God allowing that to happen, but man can still have that eternal close relationship with God if man repents and depends on God’s love, so man is out very little and has gained a world of wisdom, understanding, knowledge, experience, ways to be like God in helping really needy others with thing he can work with his hands now sacrifice, and easily develop Godly type love.

Patman, some will say God since God put the tree in the garden and made it look real good, He is at fault and other would add because God allowed Satan to be around He should share the blame.

 

[RobE]

Answer to Patman regarding The Two Trees

Answer to Patman regarding The Two Trees

I wanted to post this dissertation on the traditional view of predestination so you can see exactly what Christians believed before Calvin existed. Don't get too tied down as I consider myself to be a Evangelical.

So, I hope you can see that Open Theism does allow for some future knowledge to a point. But it is with an understanding that even some future knowledge is open to change, because the future is not absolute. We can Trust God do shape our future in heaven to be a wonderful time to live.
-Patman

My point on the judgement seat is absolute. We will be there and that is exactly where our 'real' lives will begin. The future for all of us will pass through there and is 'closed'.

Let me discuss the two trees in this post:

Genesis 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

The Tree of Life

Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he who wins souls is wise.

Revelation 22:1
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Revelation 22:7
7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

God placed a cherubim to guard the way to the Tree of Life so that man wouldn't eat of it and live forever. The cherubim was placed there after Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge. Why not before? In Open Theism Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life first. It is a possibility, right? Why wasn't the cherubim there from the beginning then?

He knew without a doubt that Adam would eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil first! Foresight! There's no way that Jesus could have simply predicted a creature without sin would sin. Think about this, it's important! Adam had no reason to sin and wouldn't have sinned without the help of Satan. That's why Satan was placed in the garden as well.

Divine setup? Or bad luck?

So why did God put an angel to guard the Tree of Life? It's simple. When Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge his own future changed. Then God foresaw Adam would eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. This He could not allow. So, God changed the future again and put a guard on the Tree of Life to prevent this outcome. That is why the Lord didn't have to put the guard on the Tree of Life before the fall. He foresaw that Adam wouldn't eat from it first.

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

The Lord obviously put the Tree there for the fall: Genesis 3:22

Yours,

Rob

p.s. You used my Bob Enyart quote before I got to use it myself. I want you to understand that Bob is an Arminian as well. But please don't tell him. I want it to be a surprise later.

 

[patman]

RobE

RobE

Hello RobE.

You said, "Don't get too tied down as I consider myself to be a Evangelical."
I say, "I will not get too tie down, and have not; out of honoring what say you believe and respecting your words by understanding I will not do that."

No one fits perfectly into a mold. As long as we are pretty close, we can say we believe things "like" this set. And I know from personal experience this to be true.

God placed a cherubim to guard the way to the Tree of Life so that man wouldn't eat of it and live forever. The cherubim was placed there after Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge. Why not before? In Open Theism Adam could have eaten from the Tree of Life first. It is a possibility, right? Why wasn't the cherubim there from the beginning then?

He knew without a doubt that Adam would eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil first! Foresight! There's no way that Jesus could have simply predicted a creature without sin would sin. Think about this, it's important! Adam had no reason to sin and wouldn't have sinned without the help of Satan. That's why Satan was placed in the garden as well.

Divine setup? Or bad luck?

So why did God put an angel to guard the Tree of Life? It's simple. When Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge his own future changed. Then God foresaw Adam would eat of the Tree of Life and live forever. This He could not allow. So, God changed the future again and put a guard on the Tree of Life to prevent this outcome. That is why the Lord didn't have to put the guard on the Tree of Life before the fall. He foresaw that Adam wouldn't eat from it first.

RobE, that was a very well written and thought out post. You made your point well. I am of the belief that the Tree of Life is not eat once and live forever magical tree. I believe it is an eat continually, live forever life sustaining tree.

Adam could have eaten of the tree before the fall. You are right, there were not commands to prevent it, there was no guard over it. God understood that man had access to it. If it were the type of tree that if you eat it just once, you are immortal forever, and the possibility existed that Adam could eat it first, and then eat the tree of knowledge, it would have been unwise to leave it unprotected.

I agree that the Tree of knowledge was put there for the fall. But not for anyone in-particular, but for whoever would choose. Say Adam never ate of it, but his great grandson did. That's what it was there for, so those who wanted to fall may.

I particularly think the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is an ingenious way to initiate the fall of an individual. The true fall comes from the sin that separates man and God. God could have issued any other command for them to break, but instead made it a sin to eat the Tree. That is because any other sin would have just separated them, man would have no way of knowing how to rejoin himself with God without an internal "law" that shows him Good and Evil.

Having this law gives man a chance to make it for many years apart from God by knowing what evil is, and should the man choose, avoid it.

Death also came with the tree. It was both a spiritual and a physical death. The knowledge of Good and Evil would be a great factor in helping the human return to God, thus restoring his spiritual life. But his physical death was certain, for without the Tree of Life to sustain him, his body, after years of friction, gravity, sweet, and bad diets and cheese burgers, he would eventually wear out and die.

Thanks,
Pat
P.S. I'll let Bob fight his own battles about his beliefs. He lays out what the OV is pretty well, and it is very much the same as I believe, and I claim to the OV. He seems to know the differences better than I. It would be good to have him back on the thread.

In the past, I probably was Arminian, but over time I could no longer can agree that 'God knows the future' in any way other than stated in previous posts. And that changed my attitude about freewill, fate, and many other aspects about our lives. My understanding of the Arminianism is in many ways very different than what I believe, and from what I hear Bob say, him too.

Certainly the church I grew up in was Arminian in nature. It was a little different from other churches, because there I learned that God could change his mind. That was a huge bases on which I was able to see the OV clearly when I changed my mind.

Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism. It is a short and easy read. Tell me if this is the way you would describe Arminianism so I might understand YOU this time (It wasn't too long ago you were trying to understand me)

Most of this covers the belief system I once held. I never agree with everything, but slowly I began do disagree with too many aspects that I cannot ascribe to be under its umbrella.

 

[RobE]

I stand corrected.

I stand corrected.

I'd never heard the term Arminian until this debate(in my first post I was already suffering from F.I.T.M.S.. I want you to see the 5 reasons that Arminius dissented from Calvinism. They invented T.U.L.I.P. to counteract those reasons. Tulip is their response to Arminius. I believe. I said Bob was an Arminian, but he definitely isn't. Neither am I. Sorry. I think I'll switch to: I agree with the 'Traditional View' from here on. Thanks for the insight. What differentiates what you believe with the link that I provided you in my last post?

Robe

p.s. The misunderstanding came from my three tiered predestination system(T.T.P.S) and probably from my foot in the mouth syndrome(F.I.T.M.S.).

T.T.P.S.

1) those that believe everything is Foreordained are Calvinists

2) those that believe nothing is Foreordained are blind

3) those that believe God has Foreordained the 'Plan' but doesn't interfere with Free Will(since it really can't interfere with what God wants) are Arminians.

F.I.T.M.S.

A syndrome caused by not enough research(Usually accompanied with assumptions). Indications include having to remove one's foot from one's mouth. And here it is --- an apology. Thanks again.

 

[RobE]

Reply to Patman's Post

Reply to Patman's Post

Adam could have eaten of the tree before the fall. You are right, there were not commands to prevent it, there was no guard over it. God understood that man had access to it. If it were the type of tree that if you eat it just once, you are immortal forever, and the possibility existed that Adam could eat it first, and then eat the tree of knowledge, it would have been unwise to leave it unprotected.

Death also came with the tree. It was both a spiritual and a physical death. The knowledge of Good and Evil would be a great factor in helping the human return to God, thus restoring his spiritual life. But his physical death was certain, for without the Tree of Life to sustain him, his body, after years of friction, gravity, sweet, and bad diets and cheese burgers, he would eventually wear out and die.

Then why didn't God just wait until He'd eaten of it once and then place the guard? And why did He only have to eat of the Tree of Knowledge once? The second question, I believe, disolves your argument that the Tree of Life would have to be revisited.

I understand your saying the sin was in Adam's choice, but the Bible is specific that God placed both trees in the Garden. Do I believe there was a Garden? Absolutely. Do I believe there is are physical and spiritual Trees(Life and Knowledge)? Absolutely. The Tree spoken of in Rev. is that spiritual Tree and the Trees spoken of in Gen. are those physical Trees.

Yours,
RobE.

 

[RobE]

To pick up where Lee left off

To pick up where Lee left off

Here are some comments on Tyre I thought you might be interested in:

From enduring word.com;

from cedarland.org;

From the The Lebanon Embassy;

and finally The siege of Tyre by Alexander.

Your comments. I haven't had a chance to study this until today. Where is Lee anyway?

Yours,

RobE

 

[patman]

RobE

RobE

Here are some comments on Tyre I thought you might be interested in:

From enduring word.com;

from cedarland.org;

From the The Lebanon Embassy.

Your comments. I haven't had a chance to study this until today. Where is Lee anyway?

Yours,

RobE

Thanks for the comments RobE. I found this quote interesting from enduringword.com:

“Tyre, after its destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, recovered, as it is here foretold, its ancient trade, wealth, and grandeur; as it did likewise after a second destruction by Alexander. It became Christian early with the rest of the neighboring countries. St. Paul himself found many Christian there, Acts 21:4. It suffered much in the Diocletian persecution. It was an archbishopric under the patriarchate of Jerusalem, with fourteen bishoprics under its jurisdiction. It continued Christian till it was taken by the Saracens in 639; was recovered by the Christians in 1124; but in 1280 was conquered by the Mamelukes and afterwards taken from them by the Turks in 1517. Since that time it has sunk into utter decay; is now a mere ruin, a bare rock, ‘a place to spread nets upon,’ as the Prophet Ezekiel foretold it should be, chapter 26:14.”

I have not invested a lot of study into Isaiah as of yet, so much of what I say here is first glance opinions, of which two heads are better than one, so here you go:

I do not know if this prophecy was fulfilled in all aspects as they claim. The say that Isaiah, who lived long before Ezekiel, prophesied that after 70 years, Tyre would be restored after Babylon attacked it.

This Attack happened shortly after the fall of Jerusalem. This would mean that shortly after Cyrus let Israel return home to rebuild, Tyre would be restored. This does not seem to be what happened at all. Tyre remained as it was during this time, but only under Babylon Rule. After that, it was taken over by the Persians(Cyrus and his bunch).

In his time, instead of restoring Tyre (A Phoenicia City), Persia took changed everything Tyre was known for away. It began their "Decline," as stated by WIKI:

"Phoenicia accepted rule by the Persians. Cyrus the Great conquered Phoenicia in 538 BC. Phoenician influence declined and later culture that they were known for disappeared." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

Ezekiel's prophecy seems to note a change in the plan. God, through Isaiah, planed to restore them. But after Tyre said "a ha!" to Israel after being destroyed by Babylon, God's anger against them was much greater. He now was willing to utterly destroy them.

The battle rages on for years. It is pretty well whooped, but still standing. It was around this time that the remaining Jews in Judah start sinning in Egypt. I believe this is why God changed his mind on Tyre, because Nebuchadnezzar, his servant, was needed more in Egypt instead, to bring judgement on the sins and idolatry in Egypt.

Tyre was humbled enough, and would be so for the next thousand years.

Regarding the tree
I would like to have more evidence for my claims, and for now I prepared to present very much. It will take a while to gather the research to back up what I say. Most of what I saw is based on an overall understanding of God and how he interacts with people, and the garden story, as well as stories about Satan's fall. And a bit of problem solving is involved too.

I would like to simply point out a fallacy in your argument in hopes that you will at least consider my ideas:

"And why did He only have to eat of the Tree of Knowledge once? The second question, I believe, disolves your argument that the Tree of Life would have to be revisited."

Because one tree has eternal consequences the other tree is not required to as well. It is not a dissolving statement at all. One tree is not required to have a certain longevity because the other one does too.

Thanks RobE
-Pat

 

[patman]

RobE, I have no idea what happened to lee. Lets hope and pray he is well.

Lee, we welcome you to make any comments on the thread.

God bless.

 

[RobE]

I changed my previous post to point to the utter destruction of Tyre by Alexander. I guess you were responding to my post while I did this.

Of the one Tree not having the same attributes as the other. All supernatural forces have eternal consequences. The two trees were paired. One to bring Death, the other Life. Their nature should be consistent, logically and supernatural since we know nothing 'natural' that will give us knowledge.

yours,

RobE

 

[patman]

RobE, we are too fast for each other.

RobE, we are too fast for each other.

I changed my previous post to point to the utter destruction of Tyre by Alexander. I guess you were responding to my post while I did this.

I always said Alexander was the first to really wallop Tyre. He put a hurt on them in a bad way. But Alexander is not a Chadian, a Babylonian, nor Nebuchadnezzar, he is Greek / Macedon.

Tyre has been a place involved in many wars over the past few thousand years, and is one of the oldest cities today. In it's great history, someday it will fall.

The Bible was clear what nation would utterly destroy Tyre, under what king, and the degree of its destruction.

Alexander's taking of Tyre is child's play compared to the things God said would happen to them at the hands of the Babylonians.

Ezekiel 26 explains in detail the things that would happen:

2 “Son of man, because Tyre has said against Jerusalem, ‘Aha! She is broken who was the gateway of the peoples; now she is turned over to me; I shall be filled; she is laid waste.’

7 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you. 9


12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water.

13 I will put an end to the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps shall be heard no more.


19 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘When I make you a desolate city, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring the deep upon you, and great waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living. 21 I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again,’ says the Lord GOD.”


God said they were basically going to be brought down to hell, in so many words. And thats pretty bad. He said they shall be no more. Though people look for her, she will never be found again. And that's a Never. And Nebuchadnezzar was to be the doing the work.

Tyre is still there today. Nebuchadnezzar and his allies, Babylon, and the Chadians are gone. Also, this is a prophecy made against the city of people living in Tyre who rejoiced in Jerusalem's downfall, in other words - to that particular Tyre living and dwelling in that day, not for a time in the future. We know this by the first few verses in the chapter.

Of the one Tree not having the same attributes as the other. All supernatural forces have eternal consequences. The two trees were paired. One to bring Death, the other Life. Their nature should be consistent, logically and supernatural since we know nothing 'natural' that will give us knowledge.

yours,

RobE

I do not know if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represented death only. I think it was put there for more than a way out. I believe that it is possible that God intended for some to eat of it that they might gain wisdom.

The difference is that God commanded Adam not to eat of it. I think that is because Adam had to prove himself responsible enough first. Then, on Gods clock, he could eat.

As the earth populated, It would be a good idea to appoint a wise man over people, to watch over those appointed to him.

RobE, I do not know these things I am saying for sure. I admit that. I state them, and want to be clear, that this is what I BELIEVE. If I am wrong, study or those more studied than I will show me. But for now, this is the logical end I have come to.

Thanks
-Pat

 

[bling]

I have read Patman what you are saying about the trees to RobE. Do you feel God is passing intelligence on in the chemicals of a tree or there are chemicals in some tree God made that will make us live for ever?

From the beginning I had a practical reason for bring up the Garden. I really have not run into any O.V. in person. On the college campus and among young people, I am mostly confronted with agnostics at all levels. The garden story comes up a lot, because they ask why would a loving God do____. Evil and imperfections are the main points. If we forget about the Garden story being literal and just discuss what it is telling us, I have been able to work past the why’s. I like to give those I am discussing with all the alternatives, all the assumptions, all the support, and all the issues and allow them to make up their own mines. I am trying to understand all the support and all the issues to the O.V. approach to the garden.
Trying to be objective about the garden gives a story like this:
God as a loving creator creates a beautiful and unique environment that would require totally different unnatural checks and balances. Two humans are placed there, we do not know, how restrained these humans would be to keep the garden environmentally balances, any future adults may need their own garden, we do not know and we do not know how things are kept in balance especially without meat eaters. God is taking care of all that. God gives one (maybe more) rules this action must be kept or they will die. The one sin these humans can commit is made by God very convenient, very physically attractive, very intellectually desirable, and He allows a very powerful evil spiritual being, that no human can battle, Satan, to be in the Garden. There appears to be no warning about Satan given to the humans and no good spiritual help at the human’s side to combated Satan. The Humans are to have this very attractive option that is made more attractive by a lying Satan available to them, so they can make a real choice to love God. Now, if the option is truly a real possibility and the humans are making that choice every waking hour. Given an infinite numbers of times to make a real possible wrong choice, eventually the wrong choice will be made. This sounds like, God set up the humans to sin.
We might could say God didn’t know any better, but did God not know He was making the tree convenient, or the fruit physically attractive, or the fruit psychologically attractive (the tree of knowledge could have been outside the garden for after they fell, with another tree that gave you warts as the tree that was a sin to eat and a “doorway out”, God is making the rules) and last did God not realize how devious and powerful Satan was.
I am having a hard time presenting the O.V. option.

 

[RobE]

Of Tyre and Unfulfilled Prophecies

Of Tyre and Unfulfilled Prophecies

I always said Alexander was the first to really wallop Tyre. He put a hurt on them in a bad way. But Alexander is not a Chadian, a Babylonian, nor Nebuchadnezzar, he is Greek / Macedon.

Siege of Tyre
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

In 332 BC, Alexander the Great set out to conquer Tyre, a strategic coastal base in the war between the Greeks and the Persians. Unable to storm the city, he blockaded Tyre for seven months, but Tyre held on. Alexander used the debris of the abandoned mainland city to build a causeway and once within reach of the city walls, he used his siege engines to batter and finally breach the fortifications. It is said that Alexander was so enraged at the Tyrians' defense and the loss of his men that he destroyed half the city. The town's 30,000 residents were massacred or sold into slavery.

Tyre has been a place involved in many wars over the past few thousand years, and is one of the oldest cities today. In it's great history, someday it will fall.

According to the above quote it already did.

2 “Son of man, because Tyre has said against Jerusalem, ‘Aha! She is broken who was the gateway of the peoples; now she is turned over to me; I shall be filled; she is laid waste.’

7 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar[a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, with chariots, and with horsemen, and an army with many people. 8 He will slay with the sword your daughter villages in the fields; he will heap up a siege mound against you, build a wall against you, and raise a defense against you.

Alexander used the debris of the abandoned mainland city to build a causeway and once within reach of the city walls, he used his siege engines to batter and finally breach the fortifications.

12 They will plunder your riches and pillage your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; they will lay your stones, your timber, and your soil in the midst of the water.

19 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘When I make you a desolate city, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring the deep upon you, and great waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living. 21 I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again,’ says the Lord GOD.”

God said they were basically going to be brought down to hell, in so many words. And thats pretty bad. He said they shall be no more. Though people look for her, she will never be found again. And that's a Never. And Nebuchadnezzar was to be the doing the work.

Tyre is still there today. Nebuchadnezzar and his allies, Babylon, and the Chadians are gone. Also, this is a prophecy made against the city of people living in Tyre who rejoiced in Jerusalem's downfall, in other words - to that particular Tyre living and dwelling in that day, not for a time in the future. We know this by the first few verses in the chapter.

Patman, is it possible that the prophecy was misworded. Might it have been worded as 'the king of the north will destroy' or 'the king of Babylon will destroy'. Maybe what we see is Ezekiel's own understanding inserted. If God said the King of Babylon then Ezekiel would have believed this to be Neb. See what I mean. Could be. Maybe?

Below is a quote that emphasizes my point about God doing things that were unrecorded. The below scripture shows a prophecy fulfilled that can't be found being prophesied.

23 In the fifteenth year of Amaziah son of Joash king of Judah, Jeroboam son of Jehoash king of Israel became king in Samaria, and he reigned forty-one years. 24 He did evil in the eyes of the LORD and did not turn away from any of the sins of Jeroboam son of Nebat, which he had caused Israel to commit. 25 He was the one who restored the boundaries of Israel from Lebo [e] Hamath to the Sea of the Arabah, [f] in accordance with the word of the LORD, the God of Israel, spoken through his servant Jonah son of Amittai, the prophet from Gath Hepher.

Lee's Response,

Rob

 

[patman]

Bling

Bling

I have read Patman what you are saying about the trees to RobE. Do you feel God is passing intelligence on in the chemicals of a tree or there are chemicals in some tree God made that will make us live for ever?

I cannot begin to fathom the makeup of the trees, and how they did what they did. I just have a belief about the "what", and have not given much thought into the "how"

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did just what its title says. The partaker of the tree would have understanding about the nature of good and evil.

The tree of life gave/restored life to the person who ate its fruit. I do not believe that the effects of this tree were eternal. If someone ate it once, in time they would need to eat it again.

As far as the actual "how." I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "unlocked" knowledge we already had. Opened the eyes of the eater to things they before hadn't noticed.

The tree of life would be like taking B12. No, just kidding. But it would provide neutrons to the body that it could use to repair itself. The Body can do this on it's own, but the tree would offer substance that would allow this to be done much faster and better.

Trying to be objective about the garden gives a story like this:
God as a loving creator creates a beautiful and unique environment that would require totally different unnatural checks and balances. Two humans are placed there, we do not know, how restrained these humans would be to keep the garden environmentally balances, any future adults may need their own garden, we do not know and we do not know how things are kept in balance especially without meat eaters.

This is something I would love someone to explain to me. Was there REALLY no death AT ALL before the fall? I know before the fall, man was not prone to death. But animals too? And Bugs? And fish? And Birds?

I have heard for so long that before the fall, animals were vegetarians too. I do not know what verse people use to come to this conclusion, If someone would clarify it for me, I would appreciate it.

Until I hear this verse, I am not going to go along with the general thought that no animals died.

Take, for example, praying mantis. When they mate, the female eats the head of the male partner. God designed this to work in such a manner, did he not?

Bats are designed with sonar hearing in order to find bugs in flight, and their mouths open in such a way to catch bugs.

Can you imagine a world where bugs never died? And animals?

Why was the chetah designed to run so fast if not to catch animals who could run? Why was the camouflage needed to hide it in the grass so other animals would not see it before it's attack?

By design, it seems some creatures are here to kill others. And this seems good, because the world would be over run with pests and no way to get rid of it.

This is why, until I get some scriptural proof, I am not going to believe there was no death among the animals before the fall.

God is taking care of all that. God gives one (maybe more) rules this action must be kept or they will die. The one sin these humans can commit is made by God very convenient, very physically attractive, very intellectually desirable,

The tree was not made irresistible. It was pleasant to the eye, yes. But not so pleasant that you couldn't turn it down. It isn't the Lays Potato chip of fruit that no one can turn back and everyone ends up shaving their heads.

It wasn't made ugly either. You are right. But at the same time, it wasn't made turn-downable either. It was made just as good as any other tree. That is for a reason.

Had God made the tree ugly, someone may not eat of it even though he desired to fall. If he made it too good, someone might eat of it even though they didn't want to fall. If it was made to look good just like any other fruit, then there would be no bias against eating it or not.

and He allows a very powerful evil spiritual being, that no human can battle, Satan, to be in the Garden. There appears to be no warning about Satan given to the humans and no good spiritual help at the human’s side to combated Satan.

Bling, I do not know this for a fact, it is only a theory. It seems that Satan must request of God the permission to test his children before he can.

This I am pretty sure about: It also seems a rule that God protects his children against such evil in supernatural ways.

Whichever option, if not more options, is correct it does not matter. Adam and Eve were in no danger by Satan's presence. They were protected in some way, as all God's children are.

But that protection does not limit our ability to follow Satan, as it is our choice.

The Humans are to have this very attractive option that is made more attractive by a lying Satan available to them, so they can make a real choice to love God. Now, if the option is truly a real possibility and the humans are making that choice every waking hour. Given an infinite numbers of times to make a real possible wrong choice, eventually the wrong choice will be made. This sounds like, God set up the humans to sin.

I hope by the answers I have given so far will show you that many of the points you use to reach this conclusion are at least questionable.

Perhaps I over stated the "every hour of every day" in my last post. The possibility to leave God is there "every hour of every day" But the thought may not be.

Man could have turned down the offer Satan presented, and only thought about it once every thousand years for all we know, only to say no again. I see no reason to say man was driven by obsessive thoughts and constant temptations to eat of the tree.

These assumptions are all circumstantial, especially since we have no way of knowing what might have been. "It to late to think of what might have been, because that was then, and we have taken different roads, we can't go back again..."

One thing we can do is look at God's character, note what his will is for us, note why he created us, and keep in mind that the future is open to anything happening. With this understanding the Garden Situation places no blame on God and does not call into question his love for us.

I hope you realize the reasons the people bring up the garden is because they recognize the problem: God knew the outcome of the Garden and created man anyway... and the outcome was our messed up world today. So they ask, "Why would a 'loving' God do that?"

Thus they call into question, if he isn't really loving, how and why should I love him?

But the problem is solved if you simply tell them "but he didn't know the outcome with certainty."

Then the conclusion is different. God created man believing in his possibility, and loved him by putting him in the Garden. And loved him more by offering a way out, should he want it.

We might could say God didn’t know any better, but did God not know He was making the tree convenient, or the fruit physically attractive, or the fruit psychologically attractive (the tree of knowledge could have been outside the garden for after they fell, with another tree that gave you warts as the tree that was a sin to eat and a “doorway out”, God is making the rules) and last did God not realize how devious and powerful Satan was.
I am having a hard time presenting the O.V. option.

God was very wise in the Garden situation, with the tree, and loved man very much. If God did know 100% what would happen, as is the popular belief, I would understand why some would not follow... because in that sitation, God really did set us up to fail.

That is the logical outcome almost everyone comes to when they look into the situation, unfortunately some have little faith to get past it. But if those same people would look at it through the glass of the OV instead of the SV, suddenly the garden was a place of GOOD possibilities. The SV in general says the future was known, and thus the only possibility was BAD. with the OV, you can see both are possible, and that is why we were made, and that is a way to see God's love.

When you read the story through the OV, and you look at what happened while keeping in mind God did not know the future, you see a new side.

Read the following verse CLOSELY and SLOWLY. Take your time. Imagine God's grief as he found out for the first time what happened.

7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” (Gen 3)

It brings to mind God's grief when he saw just how wicked man became:

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”(Gen 6)

And after Thousands of years of waiting on his chosen people to expect God, and being reminded again that they just do not love him he said:

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”(Matt 23)

God is a god full of passion, and longing. And it fully realized and felt when you understand that future is unknown, not yet in existence.

The Garden is the perfect place to show God's love and hope for us when you take out the pre-asumption about his future knowledge.

Hope this helps
-Pat

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Here is Lee, I think I could do a poem on this!

Lee's Tyrade

Here is Lee, who once again,
Considers Neb and all his friends,
Was Babylon an only nation,
Were they to do the desolation?

Or was there Alex, and lots of Greeks!
To be discussed by theo-geeks.
And are there answers? Or just questions
About this city's towering bastions.

Ah! 'tis my fate, for months and months
To eat a tyre each day for lunch.
At dinner time, the self-same chorus:
"Just serve me some tyrannosaurus."

So I must join (I won't be gleeful), the
Association of Retyred People.

Pat: I am a little confused as to your reference to "Old Tyre." Did you really think it was like an old city?

Well, I was just quoting an archaeologist, I would expect he meant the island fortress by "Old Tyre."

So I am thinking you just hoped that the prophecy was fulfilled by 50% of the city being destroyed would be "good enough."

No, I believe it was all destroyed, the island city and the mainland, Alex (as you posted) used the stones and timbers from the coastal city to build a causeway to the island, which he then defeated.

The migration from the coastland of Tyre to the Island portion of Tyre meant that the inhabitants took off all their wealth.

Yes, and then Alex defeated the island!

But the City of Tyre remained, and to this very day remains, both coastland and island.

Well, actually it didn't, here are the pertinent parts from my previous post!

Floyd Hamilton said Old Tyre was "a bare rock" ("Evidence that Demands a Verdict", vol. 1, first edition, p. 279), the archaeologist Renan called what he saw there "ruins built out of ruins" ("Tyre Through the Ages", p. 22). Tourists have no Phoenician ruins to see on the island today! See the various tourist web pages on Tyre. That would imply that Phoenician Tyre was indeed destroyed.

"Tristam continues his description of the desolate city. 'The south side gives the clearest idea of the plan and position of the ancient city, on the foundations and massive sea-walls of which we may note the fishermen day after day spreading their nets, while the columns and capitals have been cast into the sea and "her stones and timber and soil have been cast into the midst of the water".'" "Tyre Through the Ages," p. 20).

They spent from April through September of 2005 arguing with you over Tyre.

Yes, and Lee is still tyred.

... and still after all this time keep to the only two points you could come up with:

"They" isn't Nebuchadnezzar's forces, and "never build more" isn't the same thing as "never to be rebuilt."

Well yes, and in order to stop me from presenting these arguments, the best way would be to ... refute me! Why is "they" only Neb and his army? Why am I wrong (along with the UNASB) about the prophecy saying "not built more"?

Yet, even with their arguments being as good as they were, no matter how right they showed you they were about Tyre, you still have not learned.

Well, then you should be able to repeat their convincing arguments here! May I say that I did consider them, and I was not convinced. Why should we attribute to stubbornness what might be due to thinking this prophecy was really fulfilled, on the basis of arguments?

Lee, you will never find the answers you may be looking for in life if you do not read the Bible and take its words as they are.

So, "Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord" (Eze. 26:5), should we not take those words as they are?

Lee, God intended, originally, for Tyre to be brought down to nothing and it was to remain that way forever.

And you quoted the NASB!

"I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the Lord have spoken," declares the Lord God. (Eze. 26:14).

"Not built more," which is what a most literal translation (as I see it) would be here, and that is my view. To refute me, you now need to show why this translation is wrong.

Tyre is still there.

I agree that Tyre is a city now, though it was destroyed (see above!).

Johnny Skeptic: "Lee avoided replying to my comment about dating because he didn’t want to embarrass himself anymore than he already has. That is why he vacated that thread. In typical fashion, he did not quote “any” corroborative sources that back up his arguments. This is simply not done in debates. Apparently Lee believes that if he makes completely uncorroborated assertions, a few gullible people might believe him. He might be right. A few gullible people believe that the earth is flat.

Well, I need not address the dating, if my interpretation puts the date of this prophecy at most, at or after the last possible date any scholar assigns to it! And I vacated the thread because I had been at it for three months, and we had gotten in a rut (that would be an understatement).

Johnny Skeptic: Unlike Lee, I provide corroborative sources for my arguments. The Britannica 2002 Deluxe Edition says “For much of the 8th and 7th centuries BC the town was subject to Assyria, and in 585–573 it successfully withstood a prolonged siege by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II.”

An excerpt from an article at http://www.middleeast.com/tyre.htm says “Early in the sixth century B.C. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, laid siege to the walled city for thirteen years. Tyre stood firm, but it was probable that at this time the residents of the mainland city abandoned it for the safety of the island.”

I think I also pointed out in this other thread that if the inhabitants abandoned the mainland city, Neb could be said to have won. You don't successfully withstand a siege by running away, and I would expect that Britannica meant they withstood for 13 years, which they did, at which time they ceded to have Babylonian rulers in the city. And then possibly ran off! Or maybe ran off prior to this, at least to stash their treasures.

Pat: And I thank God that my prayers can have an effect on him, that I might be able to change his mind about something because he listens to me, and the future is wide open.

Well now, do we know better than God? How can it be better for God to change his mind, if he knows best, and has all the best information?

Blessings,
Lee

 

[RobE]

Long Post for Patman

Long Post for Patman

Patman,

Hello. Here are my favorite anit-dispensationalist verses:

18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring [a] all nations on earth will be blessed,

6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

How did God know that He would be a light to the Gentiles if He didn't know the future and had no plan?

1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of.......
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.

11 "This is what the LORD says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come, ...

13 I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:
I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
says the LORD Almighty."

Cyrus Helps the Exiles to Return
1 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:
2 "This is what Cyrus king of Persia says:
" 'The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. 3 Anyone of his people among you—may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the LORD, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. 4 And the people of any place where survivors may now be living are to provide him with silver and gold, with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusalem.

How did God know Cyrus would consent to this or did God interfere with Cyrus' free will?

Judah to Serve Nebuchadnezzar
1 Early in the reign of Zedekiah [a] son of Josiah king of Judah, this word came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2 This is what the LORD said to me: "Make a yoke out of straps and crossbars and put it on your neck. 3 Then send word to the kings of Edom, Moab, Ammon, Tyre and Sidon through the envoys who have come to Jerusalem to Zedekiah king of Judah. 4 Give them a message for their masters and say, 'This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "Tell this to your masters: 5 With my great power and outstretched arm I made the earth and its people and the animals that are on it, and I give it to anyone I please. 6 Now I will hand all your countries over to my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him. 7 All nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his land comes; then many nations and great kings will subjugate him.
8 " ' "If, however, any nation or kingdom will not serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon or bow its neck under his yoke, I will punish that nation with the sword, famine and plague, declares the LORD, until I destroy it by his hand. 9 So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your interpreters of dreams, your mediums or your sorcerers who tell you, 'You will not serve the king of Babylon.' 10 They prophesy lies to you that will only serve to remove you far from your lands; I will banish you and you will perish. 11 But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to live there, declares the LORD." ' "

12 I gave the same message to Zedekiah king of Judah. I said, "Bow your neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon; serve him and his people, and you will live. 13 Why will you and your people die by the sword, famine and plague with which the LORD has threatened any nation that will not serve the king of Babylon? 14 Do not listen to the words of the prophets who say to you, 'You will not serve the king of Babylon,' for they are prophesying lies to you. 15 'I have not sent them,' declares the LORD. 'They are prophesying lies in my name. Therefore, I will banish you and you will perish, both you and the prophets who prophesy to you.' "

16 Then I said to the priests and all these people, "This is what the LORD says: Do not listen to the prophets who say, 'Very soon now the articles from the LORD's house will be brought back from Babylon.' They are prophesying lies to you. 17 Do not listen to them. Serve the king of Babylon, and you will live. Why should this city become a ruin? 18 If they are prophets and have the word of the LORD, let them plead with the LORD Almighty that the furnishings remaining in the house of the LORD and in the palace of the king of Judah and in Jerusalem not be taken to Babylon. 19 For this is what the LORD Almighty says about the pillars, the Sea, the movable stands and the other furnishings that are left in this city, 20 which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon did not take away when he carried Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon, along with all the nobles of Judah and Jerusalem- 21 yes, this is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says about the things that are left in the house of the LORD and in the palace of the king of Judah and in Jerusalem: 22 'They will be taken to Babylon and there they will remain until the day I come for them,' declares the LORD. 'Then I will bring them back and restore them to this place.' "

7 Moreover, King Cyrus brought out the articles belonging to the temple of the LORD, which Nebuchadnezzar had carried away from Jerusalem and had placed in the temple of his god. [a] 8 Cyrus king of Persia had them brought by Mithredath the treasurer, who counted them out to Sheshbazzar the prince of Judah.

9 This was the inventory:
gold dishes 30
silver dishes 1,000
silver pans 29

10 gold bowls 30
matching silver bowls 410
other articles 1,000

11 In all, there were 5,400 articles of gold and of silver. Sheshbazzar brought all these along when the exiles came up from Babylon to Jerusalem.

How did God know the items would be there when He decided to bring them back? Foresight?

11 But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to live there, declares the LORD.

Lee's answer, perhaps? Jeremiah lived at the same time as Ezekiel perhaps this is why Ezekiel isn't a false prophet. God obviously gave Tyre the way out through Jeremiah.

21 Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren. The LORD answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. 22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, "Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.

23 The LORD said to her,
"Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger."

12 Abishai son of Zeruiah struck down eighteen thousand Edomites in the Valley of Salt. 13 He put garrisons in Edom, and all the Edomites became subject to David. The LORD gave David victory everywhere he went.

The defeat of Esau's people by David. Did God make this happen just because He foretold it or did He foresee it happening when they were in the womb?

5 Joseph had a dream, and when he told it to his brothers, they hated him all the more. 6 He said to them, "Listen to this dream I had: 7 We were binding sheaves of grain out in the field when suddenly my sheaf rose and stood upright, while your sheaves gathered around mine and bowed down to it."

8 His brothers said to him, "Do you intend to reign over us? Will you actually rule us?" And they hated him all the more because of his dream and what he had said.

9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

10 When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, "What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?"

6 Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the one who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph's brothers arrived, they bowed down to him with their faces to the ground. 7 As soon as Joseph saw his brothers, he recognized them...

This speaks for itself.

22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.

9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion!
Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem!
See, your king comes to you,
righteous and having salvation,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

What's Zechariah seeing? Is this foresight?

2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from days of eternity. "

How did God force Jesus to be born in Bethlehem? Or is this foresight?

8 "Judah, your brothers will praise you;
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies;
your father's sons will bow down to you.

9 You are a lion's cub, O Judah;
you return from the prey, my son.
Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?

10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until Shiloh comes;
and the obedience of the nations is His.

Joseph descended from Judah.

" 'The LORD declares to you that the LORD himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me ; your throne will be established forever.' "

He'd be flogged. How did the Lord know the details of His death when Samuel lived. Did God coerce them into flogging Him?

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

Who will proclaim His righteousness to a people yet unborn? For He has done it.
I'll put the rest of this chapter below for it speaks of our Lord before His birth; about His death.

Psalm 22
A psalm of David.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [a]

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

8 "He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [c] my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [e] will I fulfill my vows.

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.

David crying out for himself or a prophecy of our Lord which came to pass. You be the Judge.

I hope I gave you some things to think about,

Your Friend,

Rob

 

[patman]

RobE

RobE

According to the above quote it already did.

I agree, Tyre was pretty well destroyed by Alexander the great. But as I said in my last post, his destruction of Tyre is nothing compared to what God had planned. Alexander's conquest of Tyre was not it's final chapter in history. It quickly recovered, repopulated and was there for then until today.

The Bible is quite clear as to the totality of its destruction. I posted the verses in my last post, here are a couple again:

Ezekiel 26
19 “For thus says the Lord GOD: ‘When I make you a desolate city, like cities that are not inhabited, when I bring the deep upon you, and great waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living. 21 I will make you a terror, and you shall be no more; though you are sought for, you will never be found again,’ says the Lord GOD.”

Patman, is it possible that the prophecy was misworded. Might it have been worded as 'the king of the north will destroy' or 'the king of Babylon will destroy'. Maybe what we see is Ezekiel's own understanding inserted. If God said the King of Babylon then Ezekiel would have believed this to be Neb. See what I mean. Could be. Maybe?

I do not believe this is possible at all. All this time I have been accused of undermining God's power by saying he does not know the entire future(others have said that, not you). But this idea undermines the very word.

It should never be that we change the word of God to make it fit our ideas. Instead our Ideas should fit the word.

I believe the Bible is true. If it said something happened a certain way, it with out doubt happened. If the bible records that God said something, then its account is correct.

Babylon was named. The Chaldean were named. Nebuchadnezzar was named. And several translations make the same thing. It is without doubt who God planned.

RobE, I know you respect God, please be careful not to use this line of thinking to interpret scripture. Let the words of God tell you what to think and let the words be as they are.

Below is a quote that emphasizes my point about God doing things that were unrecorded. The below scripture shows a prophecy fulfilled that can't be found being prophesied.

This is a point we do not need to debate. I know God doesn't tell us everything.

But what God does tell us is truth, and told honestly. If he said he meant for Tyre to be destroyed, he did. Any other unrecorded event would reflect that, because it is truth, and God does not lie.

Lee's Response,

Rob

RobE, I wish Lee would have put the research into the material I have presented as you have in this post. At least to show me that he knew what he was talking about.

I know, after the accidental Google find, that he did know a little, but still formed bad conclusions against heaping evidence.

I feel like your efforts are much better than Lee's, regardless of whether or not I agree. And I thank you for that.

I hope what I presented will give the issue further light.

 

[RobE]

It should never be that we change the word of God to make it fit our ideas. Instead our Ideas should fit the word.

In this spirit I now point to this verse:

Jeremiah 27:11

11 But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to live there, declares the LORD.

Does this suffice?

Yours,

Rob

 

[patman]

Quick for RobE

Quick for RobE

How did God know that He would be a light to the Gentiles if He didn't know the future and had no plan?

RobE, I thought I made it clear I didn't hold to this idea? God knew that future. I quoted Bob Hill, I showed the verse that proves that God knew the future to that end.

RobE, please answer me honestly. Did you carefully read my posts? I wonder how well anyone is reading me because I often find myself restating the same thing twice.

Your answer will have an impact on my following posts. For if you did read me carefully and comprehend what I said, I must find a different way or writing or drop out of this debate.

I value my words. Especially concerning God. Remember, teachers will be judged the hardest, and If my teachings to you are unclear, I do not want that on my plate.

Our recent posts have lead me to believe you were understanding me, but this last one really makes me question it. If the fault is mine, I must know, for I must grow beyond it. If you did not read, I simply ask you to go back and read with careful consideration.

-Patman

 

[patman]

Nice Find RobE

Nice Find RobE

In this spirit I now point to this verse:

Jeremiah 27:11

11 But if any nation will bow its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let that nation remain in its own land to till it and to live there, declares the LORD.

Does this suffice?

Yours,

Rob

RobE, yes, that Is a good reason for God to spare Tyre. This is probably one of the many reasons God changed his mind in regards to the things he said would happen to them.

In light of this, do you now agree that the Tyre prophecies went unfulfilled? That God did intend for Nebuchadnezzar to destroy it utterly and eternally, and since they finally bowed to Tyre, God changed his mind about doing those things?

 

[RobE]

RobE, yes, that Is a good reason for God to spare Tyre. This is probably one of the many reasons God changed his mind in regards to the things he said would happen to them.

In light of this, do you now agree that the Tyre prophecies went unfulfilled? That God did intend for Nebuchadnezzar to destroy it utterly and eternally, and since they finally bowed to Tyre, God changed his mind about doing those things?

Yes. I would say this is the response to Tyre's prophecy just as Jer 18? is the response to Deut 18:18. This is the condition we've been looking for. The 'why' in our question as to the prophecies outcome. A satisfactory answer for all, I would say.

I did read your earlier post. Now I need clarification on:

Can God foresee any of the future or not?

I think you said yes but the word prediction came up often. I've become a little wary of the way 'prediction' is used by some. Do you mean He can foresee outcomes?

Thanks,

Rob