I'm very excited for this debate! What gets me is, why do determinists always run to Peter and Judas? If I'm stealing any of Bob's thunder, please delete this post (Lion or Knight, feel free!). I'll let Bob handle Peter, as I'm sure he'll do just fine. I hope Bob will add to my comments in his response to Lamerson's question concerning Judas.
First off, Judas was a believer who fell away. Read the context of Matthew 13 and John 2. Jesus is speaking to His disciples (Judas was there!). Jesus says that Judas is a believer...
Matthew 13
13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
John 2
2:11 This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.
If God foreordained Judas to betray Jesus Christ, how can this be reconciled with other Scripture? Judas’s actions seem to have been ordained by God because they are prophesied. But, the betrayal of Christ was never foretold in the prophets.
If the betrayal of Christ by Judas was foreknown and foreordained, how could Matthew 26:24 be true?
Matthew 26
24 “The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”
Judas would have had no choice. Therefore, God would have predestined a man to damnation. I know John Calvin taught this idea, but I must ask, “Does God do evil that good may come?” James 1:13-17 says God doesn’t even tempt men with evil let alone predestine them to do it.
What does, “That it might be fulfilled,” mean?
Matthew 2
15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled, which was spoken by the prophets, “He shall be called a Nazarene.” (What OT Scripture?)
Notice, Matthew 2:15 references Hosea 11:1.
Hosea 11
11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, And out of Egypt I called My son. ”
Matthew 2:15 is a supposed “fulfillment” of Hosea 11:1. However, Hosea 11:1 does not refer to Christ, but rather the nation of Israel. These are not “fulfillments” of prophecy, but rather illustrations. Matthew offers another supposed “fulfillment” of prophecy. Here, Matthew shows us another illustration.
Matthew 1
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Was the Immanuel prophecy actually fulfilled? Matthew refers to Isaiah 7:14,
Isaiah 7
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Did this actually come to pass? Let’s take a look. Who was the promise made to?
Isaiah 7
10 Moreover the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying,
11 "Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above."
12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord!"
13 Then he said, "Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.
16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.
The Lord was to give Ahaz a sign. “Immanuel” was not a sign to Ahaz, but rather, an illustration applied to the Christ Child. Again, this was not an actual fulfillment since Ahaz did not receive the sign.
Now, back to Judas… Gospel Scripture to consider:
Matthew 27
9 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced,
10 and gave them for the potter’s field, as the LORD directed me.”
Guess what? There is no Jeremiah passage. We do have, Zechariah 11:12-13
Zecheriah 11
12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD for the potter.
Now, I ask, how does this refer specifically to Judas?
It doesn’t. Let's look at a few more examples...
John 13
18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’”
Most attempt to offer Psalm 41:9 as a proof text.
Psalm 41
9 “Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.”
Many believe this refers to Judas. Many believe this is a specific “predictive prophecy” concerning Judas. Let’s take a look at what David has to say…
In Ps 41:4-10 David’s prayer had been one for healing after confessing his sin (v. 4). However, he lamented the fact that his enemies took advantage of his condition. Wanting him to die (v. 5), they feigned friendship while slandering him (v. 6), saying that he would never survive (vv. 7-8). Even his trusted friend betrayed (lifted up his heel against) him (v. 9). These words, of course, were quoted by Jesus concerning Judas (John 13:18). But here David had in mind the treachery of his friend Ahithophel, who betrayed him, and then hanged himself (2 Sam. 16:20-17:3, 23).
David was not referring to Judas!!
Now, here’s another passage attributed to Judas.
John 17
12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Unfortunately,
no OT Scripture says this.
Now here is some Scripture in Acts to consider:
Acts 1
16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled (What Scripture?), which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus
17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
David didn’t say this about Judas. He said it about his “own familiar friend” Ahithophel.
Psa 41:9 “Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.”
These scriptures were fulfilled in the sense of illustration by Judas.
Acts 1
20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms: ‘Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’; and, ‘Let another take his office.’
The book of Psalms does not say that about Judas.
Psalm 109
8 Let his days be few, And let another take his office.
Psalm 6
25 Let their dwelling place be desolate; Let no one live in their tents.
Peter in Acts 1 said that David prophesied of Judas. But when did David discuss Judas Iscariot? Certainly he did not refer to him directly or name him. The Psalms often anticipate Christ. Likewise the enemies of the royal psalmist became the enemies of the Messiah. Therefore, someone was predicted in Psalms 69:25 and 109:8. Both of these Psalms are royal imprecatory psalms, but the prophecy is very general. Acts 1:20 applies them to Judas. These are not specific “predictive prophecies,” but rather, illustrations of OT examples.
I sure hope Sam has more to offer for us in the "Battle Royal X" !!!!!
God Bless, --Jeremy Finkenbinder
