Battle Talk ~ BR XI

[Stripe]

i think there is an untrue correlation drawn between death and eternal damnation in TVs round 3 post. is it possible that if you suffer the death penalty you have also recieved forgiveness?

 

[Vine&FigTree]

Capital Punishment and Blood Atonement

Capital Punishment and Blood Atonement

For a completely different argument against capital punishment from an explicitly Biblical starting point, click here.

 

[Army of One]

A few observations concerning TV's latest post:

First off, I think his "Nineveh" scenario was largely a waste of time, and a misrepresentation of Turbo's views. Turbo has already affirmed the fact that God (and only God) has the authority to forgive those who should be executed (as He not only did with Nineveh, but also with King David and the woman caught in the act of adultery). Also it should be noted that the forgiveness that the Ninevites received didn't come in the form of a prison sentence. Maybe that should have been "Nineveh's Fate: Version III". :think:

Paul opposed the DP.

I just find this statement hilarious. I guess Paul thought the sword was used for, what, spanking? :chuckle:

Why would you kill someone you've forgiven? Forgiveness means nothing then!

Why would you put someone you've forgiven in a cage? This seems to be a mistake that most anti-DP Christians make. They claim "Forgiveness" as the basis for their position, but offer only a half-hearted attempt at forgiveness ("I forgive you...now get in the cage!"). Imagine God saying "I forgive you....now off to Hell you go!" :shocked:

TurboQ23:Why do you think God so often chose such a painful method of execution?

They didnt neccessarily have guns, electric chairs, lethal injections back then.

So in the absence of guns, electricity, and hypodermic needles, God couldn't think of any method of death that was less painful than stoning or burning at the stake? Come on. I'm pretty sure they had rope back then. :chuckle: They also had knives, swords, poison, etc. The methods God prescribed were surely not because of a lack of any workable alternatives.


I'm really enjoying this BR so far. But I do think there needs to be some clarity offered on the exact topic of this debate. So far it seems that the majority of Turbo's argument has been based in the abstract (i.e. arguing how a righteous government should act), while much (though certainly not all) of TV's argument seems to be addressing the altogether different question of, "Should Christians support the Death Penalty as it is currently being administered".

 

[ApologeticJedi]

I'm really enjoying this BR so far.

It's a bit onesided.
TV doesn't seem to be able to follow a string of throught.

I just find this statement hilarious. I guess Paul thought the sword was used for, what, spanking?

Funny, but the best part was when Turbo asked if someone has the authority to forgive spiritual debts towards someone else, and TV thinks it is a clever response to return "Do you have the authority to kill someone for sins they committed against someone else?"

As if the government should say, "Murder - well that's none of our business."

 

[Stripe]

I'm really enjoying this BR so far. But I do think there needs to be some clarity offered on the exact topic of this debate. So far it seems that the majority of Turbo's argument has been based in the abstract (i.e. arguing how a righteous government should act), while much (though certainly not all) of TV's argument seems to be addressing the altogether different question of, "Should Christians support the Death Penalty as it is currently being administered".

agreed AoO .. and on your analysis (quoted here) turbo is arguing more in the spirit of the prescribed topic.

perhaps a (general) question should be: how would you set up a governmental judicial system?

 

[novice]

Why would you put someone you've forgiven in a cage? This seems to be a mistake that most anti-DP Christians make. They claim "Forgiveness" as the basis for their position, but offer only a half-hearted attempt at forgiveness ("I forgive you...now get in the cage!"). Imagine God saying "I forgive you....now off to Hell you go!" :shocked:

Exactly!

Theo lost his argument in his second post when he used the following verse as his basis for opposing the death penalty....

Hebrews 8:12 tells us:

“For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

Yet then when Turbo asked... "Should governing authorities punish criminals at all?" Theo responded... "Of course!"

Theo has undermined his own argument.

 

[Chileice]

i think there is an untrue correlation drawn between death and eternal damnation in TVs round 3 post. is it possible that if you suffer the death penalty you have also recieved forgiveness?

It is pretty hard to forgive a dead man. I guess I don't get what you are trying to say. At least as a living being the person can experience the fruits of forgiveness, even if it is in a jail cell. My mom works in women's prisons to help young ladies come to Christ and to overcome the years of abuse and other things that have driven many to crime (not saying they are not responsible for their own actions!!). But it takes quite a while for people to understand what forgiveness and freedom in Christ means. Paul preached that same freedom and forgiveness to slaves (who were often in worse conditions than our prisoners) as well as he did to free people. But, slave or free, they were alive.

 

[Primghar]

"Should governing authorities punish criminals at all?" Theo responded... "Of course!"

Theo has undermined his own argument.

That is silliness. Theo did not undermine his own argument. It would be ridiculous for him to answer "No" to the question: Should governing authorities punish criminals at all? He is merely trying to say we should not KILL them; obviously, he does not believe that we should let all criminals run around free committing all the crimes they like. There are other (better) ways to punish criminals than execution.

 

[Chileice]

A few observations concerning TV's latest post:

First off, I think his "Nineveh" scenario was largely a waste of time, and a misrepresentation of Turbo's views. Turbo has already affirmed the fact that God (and only God) has the authority to forgive those who should be executed (as He not only did with Nineveh, but also with King David and the woman caught in the act of adultery).

I do NOT think it is at all clear from the New Testament that only God can forgive. I think just reciting the Lord's prayer should raise your eyebrows on that one. If that model prayer of Jesus found in Mt. 6 and Luke 11doesn't make you question the validity of Turbo's statements, how about Luke 6.35 - 38? Unless you resort to some totally off-beat interpretation of Scripture that says Jesus´ words don't apply to us, these words are very strong:

35But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. 36Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

37"Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."

Mark 11.25 ought to make us think as well:
It seems like we would rather have vengeance than to have our own sins forgiven. Appearantly we can forgive and we ought to forgive. At least that seems to be a very strong theme of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Cor. 2.5-11 is really instructive. (So much for mister sword weilder) Paul encouraged these people to forgive a person who he had earlier had excluded from the fellowship. It may well have been the adulterer from 1 Corinthians. Here Paul was asking the people to forgive a person guilty of an OT capital crime. Was Paul God? As a matter of fact Paul left it up to the body.

5If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

So I believe that the argument tilts in favour of forgiveness, if we are New Testament Christians. Punishment should be restorative not vengeant. TV has pointed out the NUMEROUS ocassions (and each day more with DNA evidence) where people were falsely imprisoned, many sentenced to death. How is death resotrative. Are we God that we should take life? Should we abort babies? Of course not. We are not God. But many who would save the child at birth are quick to execute the child if he falls into crime. That type of hypocrisy should not exist in the Christian community.

 

[novice]

That is silliness. Theo did not undermine his own argument. It would be ridiculous for him to answer "No" to the question: Should governing authorities punish criminals at all? He is merely trying to say we should not KILL them; obviously, he does not believe that we should let all criminals run around free committing all the crimes they like. There are other (better) ways to punish criminals than execution.

Forgiveness is forgiveness. If you lock someone in a cage as punishment for a crime you have not forgiven them

 

[Sharri]

Forgiveness is forgiveness. If you lock someone in a cage as punishment for a crime you have not forgiven them

I guess that's it. I never forgave Micheal Ross for what he did, for killing Robin (my friend). I don't know if I would be for the DP if this never happen. Is that wrong? I will never know how God sees this no matter how many times I ask.
I wonder if this is my ticket to hell. I know this may not make any sense, the man did kill 8 woman, he is deceased now but how do you actually know he got what he deserved is that what God calls justice?

I think I better read Turbos debate over again

 

[Primghar]

Forgiveness is forgiveness. If you lock someone in a cage as punishment for a crime you have not forgiven them

That is not true. If your 16-year-old son stole money from you, you would forgive him. But you would still make him give the money back and possibly take away his license for a week or make him clean the house or something, but you have still forgiven him for his wrong.

I do not believe people should be given the death penalty; I believe they should be forgiven and punished--but not executed. I am not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

 

[novice]

That is not true. If your 16-year-old son stole money from you, you would forgive him. But you would still make him give the money back and possibly take away his license for a week or make him clean the house or something, but you have still forgiven him for his wrong.

I think it's rather obvious you do not understand what forgiveness means.

What you have described above is my son "paying the price" for his disobedience.

You have confused restitution with forgiveness.

It seems to me you and Theo are attempting to redefine forgiveness. Let ask you something... do you believe that you need to add anything to the forgiveness that Jesus offers on the cross? Do you need to "give the money back", "clean the house" or have your license "taken away" (to borrow from your analogy above)?

Do you believe that to attain forgiveness you need to not only repent but to pay restitution?

I do not believe people should be given the death penalty; I believe they should be forgiven and punished--but not executed. I am not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

It's difficult for you to explain because you are forced to alter the meaning of the word forgiveness to make your point.

What you describe as forgiveness... is actually restitution.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I guess that's it. I never forgave Micheal Ross for what he did, for killing Robin (my friend). I don't know if I would be for the DP if this never happen. Is that wrong? I will never know how God sees this no matter how many times I ask.
I wonder if this is my ticket to hell. I know this may not make any sense, the man did kill 8 woman, he is deceased now but how do you actually know he got what he deserved is that what God calls justice?

I think I better read Turbos debate over again

Sharri, I don't get what you are saying in this post. Can you explain a bit more?

 

[Sharri]

Sharri, I don't get what you are saying in this post. Can you explain a bit more?

Micheal Ross,killed 8 New England woman, one of the women he killed was my friend. (Robin Stavinsky).
I never let up on Ross or forgave him for what he did. is that wrong?
How does God see this? Did Ross get the justice he deserved, how do you determine justice?

not sure if this makes sense, I am not good at explaining (in typing) what I mean.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I never let up on Ross or forgave him for what he did. is that wrong?

Short answer... no.

You cannot forgive someone else's debt. If my neighbor steals my friends lawnmower I have no right to forgive him of the debt he owes my friend.

How does God see this? Did Ross get the justice he deserved, how do you determine justice?

We (as a people) profaned God by not executing this murderer painfully and swiftly.

 

[Primghar]

I think it's rather obvious you do not understand what forgiveness means.

What you have described above is my son "paying the price" for his disobedience.

You have confused restitution with forgiveness.

It seems to me you and Theo are attempting to redefine forgiveness. Let ask you something... do you believe that you need to add anything to the forgiveness that Jesus offers on the cross? Do you need to "give the money back", "clean the house" or have your license "taken away" (to borrow from your analogy above)?

Do you believe that to attain forgiveness you need to not only repent but to pay restitution?

It's difficult for you to explain because you are forced to alter the meaning of the word forgiveness to make your point.

What you describe as forgiveness... is actually restitution.

You are right; I did not explain myself well at all and the point I was trying to make is lost. To answer your question though: no, I don't believe I need to add anything to the forgiveness that Jesus offers on the cross.

Your question: "Do you believe that to attain forgiveness you need to not only repent but to pay restitution?" I was not talking about God's forgiveness; I was talking about humans forgiving other humans (and I think it makes a difference whose forgiveness we are talking about)....so, I guess my answer to that is yes--sometimes. But rather than "pay restitution," I am thinking more along the lines of "fixing the problem," which is why I say criminals should be imprisoned and in a different post I said they should get counselling or therapy or some such thing. Does that make any sense? Maybe not. I am not very good at explaining myself, but it makes sense in my head.

 

[novice]

:rotfl: Theo neg repped me and stated....

Yeah but Turbo lost his argument to Hebrews 8. We are no longer under the law. We are under the new commandment which is love.

Theo, if we are under the commandment of "love" why are you neg repping me? Shouldn't you have forgiven me???? :rotfl:

Furthermore... what makes you think it is "loving" to throw God's criminal justice system out the window? How "loving" is it to throw people you have "forgiven" in a cage for the rest of their life?

Theo, Primghar, I think it's time one of you responded to Romans 13

Romans 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Romans 13 completely obliterates your argument beyond any doubt. What is your response to it?

 

[novice]

You are right; I did not explain myself well at all and the point I was trying to make is lost. To answer your question though: no, I don't believe I need to add anything to the forgiveness that Jesus offers on the cross.

Your question: "Do you believe that to attain forgiveness you need to not only repent but to pay restitution?" I was not talking about God's forgiveness; I was talking about humans forgiving other humans (and I think it makes a difference whose forgiveness we are talking about)....so, I guess my answer to that is yes--sometimes. But rather than "pay restitution," I am thinking more along the lines of "fixing the problem," which is why I say criminals should be imprisoned and in a different post I said they should get counselling or therapy or some such thing. Does that make any sense? Maybe not. I am not very good at explaining myself, but it makes sense in my head.

In light of that wouldn't you agree that what you and Theo are arguing for is actually restitution and NOT forgiveness?

By the way... thanks for admitting that.

 

[novice]

Hey Theo in your neg rep comment to me why would you admit that you lost the debate? :think: