ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Yorzhik]

Rolf, will you agree that even if man doesn't have the right to say that God is unjust, if a man feels he is being punished for a crime he did not commit, he has the ability to be angry at God for (what he feels) is injustice by God?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

VERY INTERESTING--They are subjecting the word of God to the rationalizations of man's feeble mind; and it never occurs to them that the problem may not be with God or His word, but with their ignorance. Cite ever so many scriptures, and still they require that they must meet the demands of fallen man's reasonings.

"For since by wisdom the world by wisdom knew not God..."

You cannot escape logic, Rolf. You cannot escape the definition of words. Words mean things and ideas lead to actions and actions have consequences.
Nothing that is self contradictory can be true, by definition. That is to say, because of the definition of the word "true" or "truth", things that are true cannot self contradictory. If they are self contradictory, they are not true, period.
The source of the reasoning makes no difference, if the Bible is self contradictory it is not true, if God Himself is self contradictory then He is not true and likewise if your theology is self contradictory then it is not true. You can quote Scripture until your blue in the face and if at the end of the day your conclusions are self contradictory then they are not true.
Since your theology has been repeatedly shown to be self contradictory, all that's left for you is to decide whether or not you have the courage to accept this fact and decide based on the simplest of logic that your theology if false and that it must therefore be rejected. Is your loyalty to the truth or to your theology? That is the question you must answer.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Your theology is the theology that is unscriptural; probably because you, a fallen being, think that you are fit to judge God's word by your
own wisdom.

You don't seem to believe words mean things when someone cites numerous scriptures proving that God's first purpose is His own glory. of course that is repugnant to those without understanding, so you sit in judgement on God's Word and reject that idea as unresonable. Clue, clue; hint, hint: we are supposed to subject ourselvesto the judgement of God's word--not subject it to OUR judgement.

Until I encountered you and 1Way, it never occurred to me that some people can actually have failed Sunday School. I can't imagine either of you having passed Sunday School.

 

[Yorzhik]

RolfSo you are saying we don't have the right to judge God, is that correct?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Your theology is the theology that is unscriptural; probably because you, a fallen being, think that you are fit to judge God's word by your
own wisdom.

You don't seem to believe words mean things when someone cites numerous scriptures proving that God's first purpose is His own glory. of course that is repugnant to those without understanding, so you sit in judgement on God's Word and reject that idea as unresonable. Clue, clue; hint, hint: we are supposed to subject ourselvesto the judgement of God's word--not subject it to OUR judgement.

Until I encountered you and 1Way, it never occurred to me that some people can actually have failed Sunday School. I can't imagine either of you having passed Sunday School.

Funny, but not true. There is a difference between learning catechisms based on human reasoning and soundly exegeting Scripture. Failing Sunday School

 

[Rolf Ernst]

I said we have neither right nor authority to reject the unequivocal word of God simply because His message is not in accord with our reasonings. True faith is childlike. It does not question what is beyond its present level of understanding. Rather than challenge what it sees in the word of God, it assumes the fault to be in itself rather than in the Word and says with the Psalmist, "open thou mine eyes that I may behold wondrous things..."

"With whom took He counsel, or who instructed Him?" "As the heavens are high above the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."

Romans one is very clear that man's wisdom leads him only astray, and the triumph of the Holy Spirit is in bringing EVERY THOUGHT in subjection to the mind of Christ,

"There is no wisdom nor understanding against the Lord."

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

I said we have neither right nor authority to reject the unequivocal word of God simply because His message is not in accord with our reasonings. True faith is childlike. It does not question what is beyond its present level of understanding. Rather than challenge what it sees in the word of God, it assumes the fault to be in itself rather than in the Word and says with the Psalmist, "open thou mine eyes that I may behold wondrous things..."

"With whom took He counsel, or who instructed Him?" "As the heavens are high above the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."

Romans one is very clear that man's wisdom leads him only astray, and the triumph of the Holy Spirit is in bringing EVERY THOUGHT in subjection to the mind of Christ,

The Word must be properly translated, interpreted, and applied. I agree with the gist of your post.

 

[Yorzhik]

I said we have neither right nor authority to reject the unequivocal word of God simply because His message is not in accord with our reasonings.

So would you say that this sentence immediately above and the sentence "Man has no right to judge God." are the same; is that correct?

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Man has no authority to judge or question God OR His word. "Forever O LORD. your word is settled in heaven." God is immutable. Consequently His word is also immutable, and BOTH are beyond man's power or authority to judge or challenge

"Why do you strive against Him? For He giveth not account of any of His matters." Job 33:13

Therefore Isa. 5:3 is rhetorical. You will notice that in the first chapter of Isaiah, God says, "come now, and let us reason together." As much as some would wish, that is Not an invitation to INSTRUCT GOD! It is God dealing with men in human terms. He was entreating them to be reasonable; which, in their wickedness, they were not.
In Mal. 3:10, God is inviting people to consider His faithfulness, not subjecting Himself to their judgement. It is, like Isa. 5:3, an entreatment to use the brains He gave them--NOT instruct Him!!
Of course, this forum is packed with people who love to leave tensions between verses, and they don't care IF their understanding of Isa. 5:3 and Mal. 3:10 IS in tension with Job 33:13. Their objective is to pull God down from His glory and off a throne whose foundation will never be shaken. If they have to leave verses hanging in tension with one another to gain an impression that they have done so, that is fine with them.

If you disagree, you must reconcile not only Jpb 33:13 with your construing of similar verses, but 1 Cor. 1:19 -- 3:19 also.

 

[Yorzhik]

So you could have answered my post with a simple "yes"; is that correct?

 

[Clete]

Rolf, you’re such an idiot. No one is judging God or His Word. No one is saying that God is illogical or that the Bible is illogical. In fact, quite the exact opposite! It isn't the Bible that is self-contradictory; it’s your theology; it’s your interpretation of the Bible that is self-contradictory!

• Nothing that is true can be self-contradictory (i.e. illogical).
• Everything that the Bible actually teaches is true.
• Therefore, any teaching that is self-contradictory cannot be Biblical.
• Your theology is self-contradictory.
• Therefore, your theology is not Biblical.

And the main thing is, you have to have known that this is the point I've been making these last few posts and so what you are really saying is that people can use reason all they want as long as the conclusion they come to agrees with your theology. The moment that they disagree and you run out of arguments, it's suddenly time to suspend logic and reason and pull out the "anti-human wisdom" trump card.
In effect, you've exclaimed, "I reject your reality and substitute my own!" The problem is that it doesn't work that way! You can stick you head in the sand all day long and the fact that you are wrong will never go away. I'm not asking you to reject the Bible or God, I'm asking you to reject, an irrational theology in favor of one that preserves the text of Scripture and the character and personhood of God without being irrational. The question remains, do you have the courage to do it? As of now, it seems that you do not.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rolf Ernst]

typical clete--assertions, assertions, assertions. Unable to find
scriptures, he makes mindless, unbased assertions. At least when I post, I post scriptures and SHOW BIBLICAL BASIS FOR MY STATEMENTS. Clete is all arrogant bluster, blasting with purple prose those he cannot marshall scriptures against--HOPING that everyone will think he knows what he is talking about.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Clete insists on me adopting a theology like his own. With fake piety he speaks of PRESERVING the personhood and character of God. And he is the one who charged God with selfishness because God's first end is His own glory. If you look back over Clete's posts, you find more challenges against the God of REAL scripture than find references TO scripture. His most common tactic is to say that if God is not thus and so, according to the way HE THINKS GOD SHOULD BE, then God is unjust, selfish, or numerous other charges against God as God really is.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Yorzhik--I answered your question as I chose. On this forum, you have to be careful because there are many people anxious to
misconstrue anything you say. Because of THEM you have to build a fortress of the BASIS for your answers to protect your answers from attacks. I don't believe you will ever find me quibbling with someone about the way they choose to frame their answers. If you do, please call me onit, because I don't want to operate that way. I am from the southwest. Out here we have societal norms which graciously grant people the individual rights that are proper in a civilized society.

 

[Clete]

Oh not this again Rolf! Had it not occurred to you that I had decided to overlook the last set of lies you spewed? I noticed though that you did moderate your statements from last time. I guess you didn't want to be caught again showing your underwear like you did last time.

Look, if I'm wrong show me. Which point in the syllogism that I presented in my last post do you disagree with and why?

Do you disagree that what the Bible actually teaches is true?

Do you disagree that what is self-contradictory cannot be true?

If I am wrong, one or the other of those two points must be in error. Which is it? Show me or admit that you cannot.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Oh, not you again, clete. And you haven't even made an attempt to justify your accusation of selfishness against God because His glory is His first end. Why don't you do some house cleaning before you try to instruct others?

Your problem is that you think your reason is a basis for challenging the Word of God. It would be very easy to find statements wherein you have arrogantly presumed the right to dictate to God what His ends and proper prerogatives should be. Why don't you just go away? It is easy to imagine you not only failing sunday school, but being asked to not return! Your many statements that what the Bible says is so as long as it does not conflict with your logic is enough to turn anyone's stomach; unless, of course, they are an unbeliever!

 

[Yorzhik]

Okay. Actually a simple yes or no is very effective in forum debate. But it isn't a requirement, and your longer answer was clear enough; we agree that man has no right to judge God.

So the next part of the question: do you agree that man has the ability to judge God? And I don't mean the ability to carry out a judgement on God, but to form a judgement on God?

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Oh, not you again, Clete. And you haven't even made an attempt to justify your accusation of selfishness against God because His glory is His first end. Why don't you do some house cleaning before you try to instruct others?

I justified the statement when I made it.

Your problem is that you think your reason is a basis for challenging the Word of God.

You're not paying attention Rolf. I've said just the exact opposite.

Let me ask you again in a more direct manner. Is the Bible self-contradictory and yet true, in your view?

In my view, the Bible is absolutely true and therefore cannot be self-contradictory. Any theology that presents a teaching that is self-contradictory is both untrue and unbiblical.

It would be very easy to find statements wherein you have arrogantly presumed the right to dictate to God what His ends and proper prerogatives should be.

No it wouldn't. The only such statements are based on the definition of words like justice, love, righteousness, etc. All of which are defined by the Bible and more specifically God Himself. You can find nothing that I've said that contradicts this.

Why don't you just go away? It is easy to imagine you not only failing Sunday school, but being asked to not return!

I have been kicked out of more than one Sunday School class and primarily because I have presented argument after argument that cannot be answered against Calvinism and the Sunday school teacher had no more courage to accept the plain truth than you do. They were more than happy to lay in their comfortable little bed of lies and irrationality about what the Bible teaches.

Your many statements that what the Bible says is so as long as it does not conflict with your logic is enough to turn anyone's stomach; unless, of course, they are an unbeliever!

That's just it Rolf, it's not MY logic, it's just logic; simple reason. 1+1=2, 2+2=4. I didn't make that stuff up, that just the way it is. And just as 1+1=2, truth must be self-consistent. Your theology is self-contradictory and is therefore false, if that isn't correct then you are the one who will have to come up with his own form of logic because if self-contradictory positions can be true then there is no way to tell what is false by means of simple reason.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Rolf Ernst]

Clete--The scripture says you are wrong. Reformed theology doesn't contradict scripture. You THINK it does because you don't understand
scripture; so when someone tells it like it is, you think they are contradicting the Bible. The reality is that they are contradicting your IDEA of what the Bible says.

Why do you think you so often are caught short when the Scripture is carefully explained? An example is 2 Pet 3:9--Time after time I bore patiently your ignorant statements that 2 Pet. 3:9 disproved the Reformed faith. You have a habit of making wild claims with no basis in scripture, and following--reading through--your gargantuan posts is enough to turn one's stomach. Your wild claims made without scriptural proofs don't leave one in a mood to waste time on you. You and 1Way are like teenage children who refuse to tidy up your rooms. When the parent straightens up for you, it is no time at all before you have the room in a mess again. Do you realize how many parents just finally insist that their door be kept closed? That is what it is like--your theology is in such a mess, a person just wants to ignore you. Nevertheless, I have spent some time on you. You know how rooms are--it takes a lot longer to clean a child's room than it took for them to mess it up. Nevertheless, I have taken some time to explain things, like 2 Pet. 3:9 and 1 Tim. 2:1-9 but WHAT THANKS OR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT DID YOU OFFER. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT YOU HAVE ever PROFITED BY THE TIME SOMEONE HAS TAKEN TO HELP YOUR UNDERSTANDING. neither have you been appreciative. You just take a quick hike and disappear in the woodwork.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Clete--The scripture says you are wrong. Reformed theology doesn't contradict scripture. You THINK it does because you don't understand
scripture; so when someone tells it like it is, you think they are contradicting the Bible. The reality is that they are contradicting your IDEA of what the Bible says.

Rolf,

I'm going to say this again and I want for you to read it one word at a time really slowly so that you'll get it this time.

YOUR

THEOLOGY

CONTRADICTS

ITSELF!

It's SELF-contradictory and it is therefore FALSE. It is FALSE and so it is therefore UNBIBLICAL because what the Bibles actually teaches is TRUE and is therefore not SELF-contradictory.

Why do you think you so often are caught short when the Scripture is carefully explained? An example is 2 Pet 3:9--Time after time I bore patiently your ignorant statements that 2 Pet. 3:9 disproved the Reformed faith.

Calvinism can be falsified via Scripture and I have done that many times on this website and on this very thread. But it can also be falsified by several other means as well, including on the basis that it is rationally impossible because it is self-contradictory.

You have a habit of making wild claims with no basis in scripture, and following--reading through--your gargantuan posts is enough to turn one's stomach.

This is a lie; I have no such habit. I just don't find it necessary to Biblically establish the same point every single time I make it.
And I respond to posts point by point. If you don't like the length of my posts then don't read them. You don't pay attention to what you read when you do read them anyway.

Your wild claims made without scriptural proofs don't leave one in a mood to waste time on you.

You were the one who practically begged me to tackle this issue with you in the first place. Your whining about my methodology in creaming you in a debate is hardly credible.

You and 1Way are like teenage children who refuse to tidy up your rooms. When the parent straightens up for you, it is no time at all before you have the room in a mess again. Do you realize how many parents just finally insist that their door be kept closed? That is what it is like--your theology is in such a mess, a person just wants to ignore you.

Then clean it up for me Rolf! Tell me where my logic is faulty. Demonstrate that I don't know what I'm talking about by refuting my arguments. You can claim that I am wrong all day and twice on Sundays and it just makes you look more and more silly. That's why I keep on with this. I couldn't make an argument that makes Calvinism look worse than you do just by showing up!

Nevertheless, I have spent some time on you. You know how rooms are--it takes a lot longer to clean a child's room than it took for them to mess it up. Nevertheless, I have taken some time to explain things, like 2 Pet. 3:9 and 1 Tim. 2:1-9 but WHAT THANKS OR ACKNOWLEDGEMENT DID YOU OFFER. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT YOU HAVE ever PROFITED BY THE TIME SOMEONE HAS TAKEN TO HELP YOUR UNDERSTANDING. neither have you been appreciative. You just take a quick hike and disappear in the woodwork.

You're are perhaps the most hypocritical poster on this site. It's amazing that you can't see it.

Resting in Him,
Clete